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  #181  
Old 17 January 2018, 18:19
MrMojok MrMojok is offline
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As far as the ones who are charged, based on the details HERE it sounds like the McCain skipper is truly fucked

"In particular, McCain's commanding officer disregarded recommendations from his executive officer, navigator and senior watch officer to set sea and anchor watch teams in a timely fashion to ensure the safe and effective operation of the ship. With regard to procedures, no one on the Bridge watch team, to include the commanding officer and executive officer, were properly trained on how to correctly operate the ship control console during a steering casualty."

There was no steering casualty and it goes on and on. You can read the Navy's actual report on both incidents HERE. Especially in the case of the McCain it is not a pleasant read.
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  #182  
Old 18 January 2018, 09:57
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Quote:
....and, more importantly, leadership failed to adhere to well-established protocols put in place to prevent collisions.
Quote:
With regard to procedures, no one on the Bridge watch team, to include the commanding officer and executive officer, were properly trained on how to correctly operate the ship control console during a steering casualty."
How the fuck are they permitted to serve in those capacities without the required knowledge to operate the ship?

Blame for this has to go above the COs ...

Quote:
8.1 Training
FITZGERALD officers possessed an unsatisfactory level of knowledge of the International
Rules of the Nautical Road.

21

Watch team members were not familiar with basic radar fundamentals, impeding effective
use.
8.2 Seamanship and Navigation
The Officer of the Deck and bridge team failed to comply with the International Rules of the
Nautical Road. Specifically:
FITZGERALD was not operated at a safe speed appropriate to the number of other
ships in the immediate vicinity.
FITZGERALD failed to maneuver early as required with risk of collision present.
FITZGERALD failed to notify other ships of danger and to take proper action in
extremis.
Watch team members responsible for radar operations failed to properly tune and adjust
radars to maintain an accurate picture of other ships in the area.
Watchstanders performing physical look out duties did so only on FITZGERALD’s left
(port) side, not on the right (starboard) side where the three ships were present with risk of
collision.
Key supervisors responsible for maintaining the navigation track and position of other ships:
Were unaware of existing traffic separation schemes and the expected flow of traffic.
Did not utilize the Automated Identification System. This system provides real time
updates of commercial ship positions through use of the Global Positioning System.
FITZGERALD’s approved navigation track did not account for, nor follow, the Vessel
Traffic Separation Schemes in the area.
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  #183  
Old 18 January 2018, 20:04
MrMojok MrMojok is offline
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I'm no expert on US Naval history and may be wrong, but I believe never in history has the US Navy charged one of its ship commanders with negligent homicide.

They have already relieved or forced into retirement the two COs, the squadron commander, the Seventh Fleet Commander, and if I'm not mistaken the Commander of the entire Pacific Fleet.

I guess they want to go the extra distance here.
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  #184  
Old 18 January 2018, 22:41
WGH0922 WGH0922 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Streck-Fu View Post
How the fuck are they permitted to serve in those capacities without the required knowledge to operate the ship?

Blame for this has to go above the COs ...
But I guarantee they all completed their online sexual harassment training and they had 100% CFC Contributions. This is really f'd up.
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  #185  
Old 19 January 2018, 08:30
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Originally Posted by MrMojok View Post
I'm no expert on US Naval history and may be wrong, but I believe never in history has the US Navy charged one of its ship commanders with negligent homicide.

They have already relieved or forced into retirement the two COs, the squadron commander, the Seventh Fleet Commander, and if I'm not mistaken the Commander of the entire Pacific Fleet.

I guess they want to go the extra distance here.
I want to see some hard time handed down. Strip them of their pensions if they get one.
Time to set some examples.

It is a privilege to lead.
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  #186  
Old 19 January 2018, 08:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMojok View Post
They have already relieved or forced into retirement the two COs, the squadron commander, the Seventh Fleet Commander, and if I'm not mistaken the Commander of the entire Pacific Fleet.

I guess they want to go the extra distance here.
Forced into retirement while the CO's get criminal charges is nothing more than a continued protection for the Flag officers. 4 ship accidents and multiple deaths on your watch? You still get your pension and get to sleep in late on Monday....

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I want to see some hard time handed down. Strip them of their pensions if they get one.
Time to set some examples.

It is a privilege to lead.
Indeed.
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  #187  
Old 19 January 2018, 13:26
MrMojok MrMojok is offline
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Originally Posted by Streck-Fu View Post
Forced into retirement while the CO's get criminal charges is nothing more than a continued protection for the Flag officers.
That it is.
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  #188  
Old 19 January 2018, 14:29
Oldpogue Oldpogue is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMojok View Post
I'm no expert on US Naval history and may be wrong, but I believe never in history has the US Navy charged one of its ship commanders with negligent homicide.

They have already relieved or forced into retirement the two COs, the squadron commander, the Seventh Fleet Commander, and if I'm not mistaken the Commander of the entire Pacific Fleet.

I guess they want to go the extra distance here.
It just wasn't the ship accidents, I think the whole Fat Leonard scandal had a lot to do with it as far as the Pacific Fleet and Seventh Fleet Admirals getting canned.
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  #189  
Old 19 January 2018, 21:12
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Originally Posted by Oldpogue View Post
It just wasn't the ship accidents, I think the whole Fat Leonard scandal had a lot to do with it as far as the Pacific Fleet and Seventh Fleet Admirals getting canned.
Seventh Fleet was purely a symbolic reaction to the accidents. The guy was literally less than two weeks away from retiring when he was canned. I agree about PACFLT, though. Too many things dropped on his watch for them to promote him to PACOM.
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  #190  
Old 20 January 2018, 13:02
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VADM Rowden is officially out. This means the whole chain of command from the ship to the head of surface forces has been replaced (to varying degrees of discipline).

https://news.usni.org/2018/01/16/swo...ald-collisions
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  #191  
Old 8 May 2018, 05:38
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So, the Navy finally is revealing details of the crash via findings from the various Article 32 investigations.

This is really bad. How could they cross the bow of another vessel at 650 yards and not call the CO? If the OOD and TAO were this incompetent, the CO needs to hang given the fatal consequences of his poor leadership.

Quote:
Lt. j.g. Sarah Coppock was the officer of the deck, or OOD, early on June 17, when the Fitz was steaming off Japan, according to a charge sheet released by the service.

She will face a special court-martial Tuesday in Washington and is charged with dereliction in the performance of duties through neglect resulting in death, according to the charge sheet.

As OOD, Coppock oversaw ship navigation when the commanding officer was not present.

She is accused of failing to comply with the commanding officer’s standing orders, as well as international water navigation rules.

It was Coppock’s duty to communicate with the ship’s combat information center, report ship contacts to the skipper, operate safely in high-density traffic and “alert crew of imminent collisions,” the charge sheet states.

While the Navy has refused to make public any of its investigations into the disaster, a review released last fall found the OOD didn’t attempt to contact the commercial ACX Crystal ship via radio, nor did she attempt to maneuver to avoid the Crystal until a minute before the collision.

At one point, the Fitz crossed the bow of an oncoming merchant ship at a range of less than 650 yards — fewer than four ship lengths — and the OOD never informed the captain, a violation of standing orders that require the skipper to be summoned to oversee hazardous conditions.

On Wednesday, two Navy lieutenants will face Article 32 proceedings for their roles in the Fitz collision.

One, a woman whose name was redacted in the charge sheet provided by the Navy, was serving as the tactical action officer at the time.

Known as a TAO, the officer is responsible for the weapons, propulsion and sensors while the captain is away, and has the authority to maneuver.

She was derelict by failing to communicate with the bridge regarding safe speed and maneuvering recommendations, while failing to enforce efficient watch standing in the combat information center, which handles weapons systems and radar, according to the charge sheet.

Last year’s review found watch standers in the center failed to “tune and adjust their radar to maintain an accurate picture of other ships in the area.”

An unidentified male lieutenant faces the same charges as the unidentified female lieutenant.

He was serving as the surface warfare coordinator in the combat information center and is accused of failing to provide recommendations to the TAO and the bridge, while failing to stand his assigned station or ensure proper watch standing was carried out, according to the charge sheet.
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  #192  
Old 15 January 2019, 13:05
bobmueller bobmueller is offline
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There's a series of articles at NT over the last few days that talk in detail about new investigation findings being released. It sounds like things were pretty bad aboard the Fitz; my comment to one friend was "It's almost like being at war for 18 years has an effect on people and equipment." This is the stuff generated by RADM Fort's investigation. It'd been held from public view until now.

From one article:
Quote:
Beyond the human waste and garbage collecting in the CIC, Fort’s investigators found CIC watchstanders who “demonstrated a lack of knowledge about radar functionality and material condition.”

Although the Fitz’s SPS-67 radar was listed as operational on the eve of the collision, it had actually fallen into a “degraded status,” according to the report.

CIC watchstanders couldn’t use their remote control to guide it because it also was broken.

A dead radar control button had been “covered by a piece of masking tape,” but Fort’s investigators couldn’t locate a casualty report chronicling the malfunction.

A work order had been generated to order, install and test new control buttons.

That was 194 days before the collision, Fort found.

And that long delay was far from unusual on board the Fitz.

Fort’s investigators interviewed a watchstander who told them that a SPA-25G radar console had been broken for at least four months before the collision.

Then there was the ship’s Voyage Management System.

Used to navigate the destroyer without relying on paper charts, the Fitz’s VMS was so freighted with problems that technicians cannibalized the set in the skipper’s quarters for parts to keep the system running.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=geoff+ziez...hh&df=w&ia=web
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  #193  
Old 15 January 2019, 13:13
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That investigation needs to show if it was unique to the Fitz that long lead times for parts were common or if it was fleet wide. I suspect it to be fleet wide. Though the Fitz still needed to document the condition properly.

It still stinks like pushing the punishment to the junior most level. For every unqualified watch stander, someone signed off their qual..... and someone certified that trainer. Or someone gave wink order to bypass appropriate condition reporting because the Cruiser Squadron Commander can't have his fit-rep show a lack of readiness due to a parts shortage and undertrained crew.
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  #194  
Old 15 January 2019, 14:47
Lagunaroy Lagunaroy is offline
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Lotsa detail over at Sal's on this issue. http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/20...collision.html
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  #195  
Old 16 January 2019, 11:11
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ET1/ss nuke ET1/ss nuke is offline
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Originally Posted by Lagunaroy View Post
Lotsa detail over at Sal's on this issue. http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/20...collision.html
That's a tough read.

Incompetent officers can, in the short term, be overcome by a professional NCO corps. In this case, the entire command and personnel structure was compromised by gross unprofessionalism.

The chronic issue of broken equipment, deferred maintenance and reduced capabilities being matched with no reduction in operating tempo is neither new nor unique to them. However, when people must make up for what equipment can't do as designed, there must be a greater emphasis on watch standing practices and damage control.

Instead, they had a dysfunctional command group with female junior officers being so bitchy to each other that they refused to relay critical operational data to one another, senior commanders who dumped their responsibilities onto an ill-prepared group of junior officers, senior enlisted personnel who did not maintain cleanliness, professionalism, efficient communications, or discipline among the crew, and junior enlisted personnel who had not been trained to do their jobs or respond to emergency conditions. The Fitzgerald was a disaster looking for a place to happen, and none too picky about who or what they ran into.

It is bad enough that those conditions were allowed to continue abord the Fitz long enough to bite them and the crew of a freighter who managed to get in the way of their incompetence. What is much, much worse is that those conditions (referring to the personnel issues) do not seem unique at all to that unit, but are being allowed to fester by officers and NCOs who are either so career-risk-averse or who operate in such a PC-mandatory environment that they can't or won't do anything to fix the problems. That speaks to a command climate enforced from above and beyond the unit level, the kind of toxic inanity only promulgated by the staffs of flag officers who sit far from danger.

Budget realities at the Pentagon and resource allocation priorities at the flag officer level dictate the availability and effectiveness of spare parts, drydock time, major maintenance, A schools, C schools, etc. as they always have, but the way to overcome that has always been on-the-job training by the experienced people aboard whose lives depend on everyone knowing how to do what they must. Much more than equipment design, competent personnel provided our Navy's performance edge over our enemies. The admiral's report about the Fitz reads like the worst stereotypes of the old Soviet surface fleet or some third world flotilla.

The Chinese navy our Pacific Fleet are supposed to be ready to face may lack our cool equipment, our numbers, and our supporting arms. However, we may have depended too long on the reputation of our personnel when the reality doesn't match the reputation anymore. Overconfidence, hubris and unjustified disdain for a once-negligible enemy are dangerous characteristics of any force. The French found that out in 1870, as did the Russians in 1904.
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  #196  
Old 16 January 2019, 19:46
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This is disgusting.

The SPS-67 Radar and the SPA-25G radar viewing console are both old pieces of gear. I taught maintenance and repair on this gear to young squids 89-92 time frame. The 67 has a Z80 processor if that rings any bells with you geeks.

I've also been a CIC Watch Officer as an E6 on a small ship (Similar to that TAO). Its not an easy job, but as long as your crew is trained up it is manageable. There are several means of determining ships position relative "tangos" and possibilities of collision, not just radar. It isn't fucking rocket science. We always ran an automated plot and a paper plot, passing up recommendations to the OOD on a fixed schedule, and in an emergency, on demand. This was done with a crew of six, an E-6 supervising a crew of 5 jr. POs.

The OOD has other tools at his/her command. They too have radar repeaters on the bridge. Each ship was always tasked with staffing visual lookouts fore and aft.
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  #197  
Old 16 January 2019, 20:36
Lagunaroy Lagunaroy is offline
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Originally Posted by Fubar View Post
This is disgusting.

The SPS-67 Radar and the SPA-25G radar viewing console are both old pieces of gear. I taught maintenance and repair on this gear to young squids 89-92 time frame. The 67 has a Z80 processor if that rings any bells with you geeks.

I've also been a CIC Watch Officer as an E6 on a small ship (Similar to that TAO). Its not an easy job, but as long as your crew is trained up it is manageable. There are several means of determining ships position relative "tangos" and possibilities of collision, not just radar. It isn't fucking rocket science. We always ran an automated plot and a paper plot, passing up recommendations to the OOD on a fixed schedule, and in an emergency, on demand. This was done with a crew of six, an E-6 supervising a crew of 5 jr. POs.

The OOD has other tools at his/her command. They too have radar repeaters on the bridge. Each ship was always tasked with staffing visual lookouts fore and aft.
I'll go to Sea with either you or ET1 if you have jets to fly. Get some pilots, I'll give ya some Up jets.

We'll need more gas!
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  #198  
Old 17 January 2019, 00:35
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I'll go to Sea with either you or ET1 if you have jets to fly. Get some pilots, I'll give ya some Up jets.

We'll need more gas!
That's out of my league, man. I kept the screw turning and the lights on. In a pinch I could steer or do very basic sonar functions. Navigation and bridge watches are things I have seen but not done.
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