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  #21  
Old 2 May 2017, 08:32
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Originally Posted by Whitebean54 View Post
National Guard can be activated and used in law enforcement capacity.

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I thought that was only when you wanted firearms taken away from civilians?
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  #22  
Old 2 May 2017, 09:17
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As a rule, my mil/civ line is drawn at the posse comitatus act and whether you are allowed to quit your job.
So by your definition.
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  #23  
Old 2 May 2017, 09:58
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I have the feeling that a LOT of these positions will be filled with crusty old retired cops.
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  #24  
Old 2 May 2017, 11:24
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Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
So by your definition.
Not really, but OK.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why being called a civilian is apparently an insult. I consider a civilian police force a benefit of living in the greatest country on earth. I, and I'm guessing you, have spent a lot of time in places where the police and the military are indistinguishable, and I can't think of any of of those places that are on my short list for buying retirement property.

Last edited by hawkdrver; 2 May 2017 at 11:36.
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  #25  
Old 2 May 2017, 12:13
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Originally Posted by hawkdrver View Post
Not really, but OK.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why being called a civilian is apparently an insult. I consider a civilian police force a benefit of living in the greatest country on earth. I, and I'm guessing you, have spent a lot of time in places where the police and the military are indistinguishable, and I can't think of any of of those places that are on my short list for buying retirement property.
Because you're being pretty "militant" in how the writer used the world civilian. He is using it to describe non sworn personnel. It's not a practice I agree with but in his context,it's fairly easy to grasp his point. And it's a lot easier to write and have people understand "civilian" versus using "duly sworn and commissioned" and "non sworn and commissioned".

Pretty sure what I wrote won't sway you. You have your feelings on it and I have mine.
Now back to this being a shitty idea....
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  #26  
Old 2 May 2017, 12:15
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Originally Posted by leopardprey View Post
I thought that was only when you wanted firearms taken away from civilians?
Lolz
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  #27  
Old 2 May 2017, 12:18
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Originally Posted by Whitebean54 View Post
Because you're being pretty "militant" in how the writer used the world civilian. He is using it to describe non sworn personnel. It's not a practice I agree with but in his context,it's fairly easy to grasp his point. And it's a lot easier to write and have people understand "civilian" versus using "duly sworn and commissioned" and "non sworn and commissioned".

Pretty sure what I wrote won't sway you. You have your feelings on it and I have mine.
Now back to this being a shitty idea....
I agree on the nonsworn detective idea by the way
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  #28  
Old 2 May 2017, 12:22
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I agree on the nonsworn detectives by the way
Honestly, this guy could have bumped up the word count 20% if he had just used "non sworn citizen" vs "duly sworn and appointed citizen."
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  #29  
Old 2 May 2017, 12:40
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I was puzzled about why there would even be a police-oriented Master's thesis from the NPS, so I went poking about.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this notion that we have a mostly-online Master's degree program for police officers overseen by the Navy (partly on behalf of the DHS/Customs and Border Patrol). I'm really curious to see whether people in the profession think this has 'worked' or not from the frontline perspective.
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  #30  
Old 2 May 2017, 12:46
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I was puzzled about why there would even be a police-oriented Master's thesis from the NPS, so I went poking about.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this notion that we have a mostly-online Master's degree program for police officers overseen by the Navy (partly on behalf of the DHS/Customs and Border Patrol). I'm really curious to see whether people in the profession think this has 'worked' or not from the frontline perspective.
It could be beneficial if done right. I'd look to have 3-4 people assisiting an investigator on cases. Running plates, property owned,known associates etc to the cyber realm where you could hire shit hot computer nerds to assist in the more technical areas of evidence collection.
But I see this getting fucked up by the numbers because the "sheriffs idiot brother in law needs a job" or some old assclown fishing buddy of the chief just retired and needs a retirement job to sleep at. Now you've saddled an already over worked investigator with dead weight.
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  #31  
Old 2 May 2017, 13:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitebean54 View Post
Because you're being pretty "militant" in how the writer used the world civilian. He is using it to describe non sworn personnel. It's not a practice I agree with but in his context,it's fairly easy to grasp his point. And it's a lot easier to write and have people understand "civilian" versus using "duly sworn and commissioned" and "non sworn and commissioned".

Pretty sure what I wrote won't sway you. You have your feelings on it and I have mine.
Now back to this being a shitty idea....
Exactly. My perception with Hawkdriver and the majority of people who parrot that (incorrect) line is that it's meant to be insulting. Like whoa whoa whoa I know it's not in any way relevant to the matter at hand, but point of order, cops are civilians too!!!
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  #32  
Old 2 May 2017, 22:49
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Originally Posted by Whitebean54 View Post
It could be beneficial if done right. I'd look to have 3-4 people assisiting an investigator on cases. Running plates, property owned,known associates etc to the cyber realm where you could hire shit hot computer nerds to assist in the more technical areas of evidence collection.
But I see this getting fucked up by the numbers because the "sheriffs idiot brother in law needs a job" or some old assclown fishing buddy of the chief just retired and needs a retirement job to sleep at. Now you've saddled an already over worked investigator with dead weight.
We call those people analysts. We call the sheriffs idiot brother in law, well, and idiot. But in some places they call him boss. Luckily, we who police in Massachusetts have no such sherrif issues.
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  #33  
Old 2 May 2017, 23:03
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I'd imagine years of patrol time getting to know people, procedure, the system, etc is vital experience.
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"The real problem was being able to stick it out, to sit in an office under the orders of a wee man in a dark gray suit and look out of the window and recall the bush country, the waving palms, the smell of sweat and cordite, the grunts of the men hauling jeeps over the river crossings, the copper-tasting fears just before the attack, and the wild, cruel joy of being alive afterward. To remember, and then go back to the ledgers and the commuter train, that was impossible. He knew he would eat his heart out if it ever came to that."

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  #34  
Old 3 May 2017, 02:00
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Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
I'd imagine years of patrol time getting to know people, procedure, the system, etc is vital experience.
Excately, most in my agency will have to be on the job for 2-5 years before even being considered for an investigative position.
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  #35  
Old 3 May 2017, 15:15
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Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
Exactly. My perception with Hawkdriver and the majority of people who parrot that (incorrect) line is that it's meant to be insulting.
If you care, that wasn't my intent. Can't speak for others.

Longer discussion, but you're right, this isn't the thread for it.
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  #36  
Old 3 May 2017, 20:45
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Originally Posted by Whitebean54 View Post
Excately, most in my agency will have to be on the job for 2-5 years before even being considered for an investigative position.
16 years for me. The most inexperienced guy we have in my unit is 4 years.

There is a kind of kindred knowledge that comes with time in this job. You gain it by experience. Knowing your community, knowing you beats, etc. Detectives work with their population for years, build networks and connections, and can look at a case and say "I remember this guy who .....".
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  #37  
Old 4 May 2017, 11:12
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People argue the difference between civilian and not all the time.

What about those officers who are in the military at the same time as being a LEO? Which are they? Both? Neither? :)

Departments that are short staffed should hire non-department personnel to do some "detective" duties. In our department, for example, they had us finger printing the yearly pervert Megan's law roster people. Every year the pervs on file report to the barracks, get processed, fill out paperwork, all of which really does not require a "detective" to perform. Same with Act 235 paperwork, NFA act paperwork, and employment prints. Background checks for employment could also be done by "civvies". This would free up "detectives" for working criminal cases, and cut down the BS associated with that job greatly.

I had 15 years road experience before I even thought about working in criminal investigation. There are those that only have a few years OJT going into that profession, which I think is very wrong...
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  #38  
Old 5 May 2017, 17:35
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Detectives work with their population for years, build networks and connections, and can look at a case and say "I remember this guy who .....".
And the lack of such is precisely why the "civilian detective" thing just won't work.

Since day one of being a fed, which was about ten years ago, the number one thing I have missed about my time in a municipal PD was that element of interacting with everyone all the time and knowing what goes on everywhere in town.

Third shift was the best...I could sit at an intersection and time within seconds when each vehicle would pass with residents regularly going to and from work. I knew what vehicle should be parked where at each business, which lights should be on, etc. Business owners or clerks reached out to us day and night to keep us up to date on anything unusual they observed, it was great. And that was in MA as well as Macka.

I can not even begin to comprehend how a civilian who lacks that level of familiarity with their community/AOR could possibly begin to grasp how things work and how to gather info from trusted sources.
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  #39  
Old 17 May 2017, 12:52
SombraBlanca SombraBlanca is offline
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Originally Posted by Armitage12 View Post
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this notion that we have a mostly-online Master's degree program for police officers overseen by the Navy (partly on behalf of the DHS/Customs and Border Patrol). I'm really curious to see whether people in the profession think this has 'worked' or not from the frontline perspective.
25 years ago the USBP hired several trainees with Master's degrees, in hopes they would quickly climb the ladder. Within a few years they were gone to greener pastures.

The front line needs self-motivated, ground-pounding GED holders and high school graduates that are content with their level of education. BP Agents sitting on the side of the road, heads down, pursuing on-line degrees on laptops are dangerously unaware and counterproductive.
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  #40  
Old 17 May 2017, 17:48
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My agency uses non-sworn investigators for two functions: pre-employment background investigations, and digital forensics investigations. Our pre-employment guys are retired sworn background investigators. The digital guys went civilian due to recruitment and mobility issues for sworn personnel.

We could not give a non-sworn person the ability to investigate a crime and take law enforcement action. Those require statutory authority derived from a sworn appointment and law enforcement certification in my state.
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