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  #181  
Old 24 January 2019, 08:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple36 View Post
Can you point me to some of the studies and readings you are looking at..I'm not finding anything beneficial.
Start here: https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0610144744.htm

As far as your lab values - this is where my female knowledge fails me. I'd look at healthy 20/30 something ranges and go from there. NAMS seems to be the go-to for info?
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On February 20, 2018, President Trump issued a memorandum instructing the Attorney General “to dedicate all available resources to… propose for notice and comment a rule banning all devices that turn legal weapons into machineguns.”

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time”

“Take the guns first, go through due process second”

"Or, Mike, take the firearms first, and then go to court"
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  #182  
Old 24 January 2019, 08:27
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Originally Posted by CAVmedic View Post
^Who took over the practice after Dr. C died? Are you going to the same place? I live in Ohio and was thinking about making the trip.

Went into the VA a couple weeks ago and had my blood drawn for T and total Est. I was at 379ng/dl for T (300-900)and 96pg/ml (40-115) for total estrogen so within range for both. I've been feeling like shit for a long time now, no major low T side effects other than low libido and general feeling of crappiness.

I read about Clomiphene as a way to get back in range. Has anybody know any doctors that are willing to go that route for someone not looking for TRT?

I haven't received any correspondence from Dr. Crisler's office - he was almost a 1 Man show anyway - had an office manager, but really, he's dead and had no colleagues in a partnership - so it's just one of those whacky things that happens in life. Edit: Dr. David Nebbeling in Lansing, will be taking over Dr. Crisler's patients, if they so choose.

Clomiphene Citrate (ClomidTM) is certainly an option for some, depending on how you respond. It is a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) that tricks the H/P axis into thinking there is no estrogen, so the Testes pump out more T to convert via Aromatase. It's a trick that can work very well if it works for you. But it is a synthetic drug you are now on for life - I personally would rather use the more natural direct injection of Testosterone for life, but Clomid is certainly used.

What Estrogen test was that? For males, should be:
https://www.labcorp.com/test-menu/24...ensitive-lc-ms

My last Bloods were in August.

But again, the new thinking on E2 is to let it ride - control with small but frequent injections - only worry if Gynocomastia symptoms develop (tender, painful, itchy nipples). Get lean - Aromatase loves fat.
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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
On February 20, 2018, President Trump issued a memorandum instructing the Attorney General “to dedicate all available resources to… propose for notice and comment a rule banning all devices that turn legal weapons into machineguns.”

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time”

“Take the guns first, go through due process second”

"Or, Mike, take the firearms first, and then go to court"

Last edited by Polypro; 26 January 2019 at 05:32.
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  #183  
Old 24 January 2019, 08:39
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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
On February 20, 2018, President Trump issued a memorandum instructing the Attorney General “to dedicate all available resources to… propose for notice and comment a rule banning all devices that turn legal weapons into machineguns.”

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time”

“Take the guns first, go through due process second”

"Or, Mike, take the firearms first, and then go to court"

Last edited by Polypro; 26 January 2019 at 05:31.
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  #184  
Old 24 January 2019, 10:05
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The test just said "Total estrogen" nothing about E2 or anything. According to LabCorp website it's in range.

I should add as of now I'm pretty lean about %13 BF, still exercise a few times a week. Not noticing any loss of mass or energy or strength but I'm also not a bodybuilder. Libido is in the tank and my sleeping is getting a little disturbed.
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  #185  
Old 15 February 2019, 16:32
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Been trying to follow the conversation here.

Had my yearly VA check up / labs last week. They've been following my Thyroid for being underactive for the past few years. This year I asked for a testosterone test also.

Results came back:

TESTOSTERONE 137 ng/dL Normal: 241-827

They want me to come in and get more blood work done to move forward. I tried to request more tests as stated here, will see what all they test this next time. Would you guys suggest that I keep seeing the VA or try to find a DR more experienced in this realm?

Wondering if this test was an error/fluke or if I really have that low of T. I haven't noticed that many of the effects of low T.

I'm almost 32- 5'9 160 lbs. Had knee surgery a few months ago, other then that very active- training bjj and other things 5x a week.
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  #186  
Old 16 February 2019, 07:00
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Originally Posted by MtnTempo View Post
Been trying to follow the conversation here.

Had my yearly VA check up / labs last week. They've been following my Thyroid for being underactive for the past few years. This year I asked for a testosterone test also.

Results came back:

TESTOSTERONE 137 ng/dL Normal: 241-827

They want me to come in and get more blood work done to move forward. I tried to request more tests as stated here, will see what all they test this next time. Would you guys suggest that I keep seeing the VA or try to find a DR more experienced in this realm?

Wondering if this test was an error/fluke or if I really have that low of T. I haven't noticed that many of the effects of low T.

I'm almost 32- 5'9 160 lbs. Had knee surgery a few months ago, other then that very active- training bjj and other things 5x a week.
If you can get the VA (or private insurance) to Rx the proper amount of Testosterone (800ng/dl is generally considered the lower limit), and cover the lab work - I say do it. The only reason to go out of pocket is if you can't find a clued in "regular" Doc. Unless you have some weird anomaly, *therapeutic* HRT isn't that complicated.

32 is kind of young to be that low (137) - so exploring Thyroid issues isn't a bad idea. They can also check for a Benign Pituitary Adenoma.

If the test was Liquid Chromatography Tandem Mass Spec - it was the most accurate. Luetinizing Hormone and Follicle Stimulating Hormone are what should be checked to see if your Hypothalamus and Pituitary are up to snuff (sending signals to Testes). If they are, and you get Thyroid in range with no increase - you may have just rolled snake eyes and need HRT.

Clomid (a pill) is another option if you don't want to inject (and this will really test your Hypothalmus and Pituitary for proper function).

Guys with low T very often don't think they are - low becomes the "new normal". I would have never guessed I was at 295. It's like being born and living in house with 100 Halogen Lights, where every year, one bulb burns out... 40 years down the road, you think you have plenty of light, but one day someone replaces all the burnt out bulbs - you come in and hit the switch = "Whoa!!!!!"
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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
On February 20, 2018, President Trump issued a memorandum instructing the Attorney General “to dedicate all available resources to… propose for notice and comment a rule banning all devices that turn legal weapons into machineguns.”

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time”

“Take the guns first, go through due process second”

"Or, Mike, take the firearms first, and then go to court"
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  #187  
Old 16 February 2019, 09:29
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Originally Posted by MtnTempo View Post

Results came back:

TESTOSTERONE 137 ng/dL Normal: 241-827

...very active- training bjj and other things 5x a week.
That right there is what's sapping your test. Lots of cardio sends signals to your body to reduce muscle mass and development. Plus, I bet if you're rolling 3+ times a week for more than a couple rounds on top of doing outside exercise your body is now in stress mode and you don't notice.

What do you do for nutrition?

If you don't already take a multi-vitamin with D, and zinc supplement (make sure its "chelated", zinc gluconate, methionate etc.) your body is missing out. Zinc helps prevent androgens from converting to estrogen, and with protein synthesis and repair. BCAAs also help as a post workout or even during to immediately repair damaged tissue.
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  #188  
Old 16 February 2019, 10:37
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IMO, what he's doing, won't drop him to 137 from a healthy 32yo level of 600/700 or whatever the average is for that group.

BCAA's are worthless to purchase as a supplement - just eat adequate protein as it contains ALL the amino-acids.

If you "eat the rainbow", doubtful there will be any deficiency, especially with fortified this and that in American food, but a Multi won't hurt (although it's never been scientifically shown to help, in the US, either).

Vitamin D for sure though - especially in Winter.

"Raise your Testosterone naturally by..." - You'd have to be extremely deficient to improve it a "smidge" - and a Multi and Zinc isn't going to jump him to 600.

If he said last year he tested at 600 and now he's 480 and stressed, sleeping poorly, etc... Yeah, I can see that... 137? He has an internal problem that needs a drug (maybe just Synthroid?) to fix, or an Adenoma.
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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
On February 20, 2018, President Trump issued a memorandum instructing the Attorney General “to dedicate all available resources to… propose for notice and comment a rule banning all devices that turn legal weapons into machineguns.”

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time”

“Take the guns first, go through due process second”

"Or, Mike, take the firearms first, and then go to court"
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  #189  
Old 16 February 2019, 13:53
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^There's a lot of literature out there about endurance exercise, or exercise in general and hypogonadism. I can't find anything usefull right now, but I can say that some olympic athletes such as power lifters average T levels are around what Mtn posted. Wrestlers were competing with <400(+/-150).

Some can walk around <300 and have no symptoms, so his natural baseline might not be over 500. I would agree that a multi-vitamin and zinc ain't bringing him back to where he needs to be any time soon.
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  #190  
Old 16 February 2019, 15:48
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Originally Posted by MtnTempo View Post
They've been following my Thyroid for being underactive for the past few years.

TESTOSTERONE 137 ng/dL Normal: 241-827

I'm almost 32- 5'9 160 lbs.
Your body habitus is not typical for underactive but of course it can happen. Thyroid is another area that is treated differently in the age management world, much like how testosterone is treated differently. But what ever you do get your thyroid fixed (if needed) first before adjusting/treating your testosterone levels since primary hypothyroidism is associated with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, which is reversible with thyroid hormone replacement therapy. As usual good advise above.
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  #191  
Old 17 February 2019, 00:01
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Thanks for all the feedback, and as per usual so much good info to digest here.

The VA Doc prescribed me Levothyroxine (Synthoid) .05mg daily. Just got the script yesterday. I'm going back in for more blood work on Wednesday and will find out exactly what kinds of tests they will be doing.

I had ACL surgery a few months ago- so just starting to get light cardio in again now. For the past 6 months I haven't been doing all that much physically.

But typically I try to train bjj/kickboxing 10+ hours a week if I can. With 3 days of strength/weights a week.

Nutritionally daily I take a multivitamin, protein shake a couple times a day + Amino energy, and I eat a healthy diet.

Not sure what the VA Docs plan is if my testosterone comes back low again this week. That's why I wanted to pick the informed brains here in the meantime.

The general consensus sounds like I should get my thyroid in normal range again then see what my testosterone levels are looking like. The past few years my Thyroid Stimulating Hormone level has been rising slightly from in the 4's to 5's now. The VA Doc told me its only slightly out of range of Reference Range: 0.358-3.74 . Looking back to my blood from 2014 my TSH level was 2.87.

After every time I read this thread / forum it's time to go do research and google a bunch of stuff. I'm very uneducated when it comes to these topics so trying to do some research to understand a bit more of what you guys are talking about. As always- I appreciate all the input here!
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  #192  
Old 17 February 2019, 11:50
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Originally Posted by MtnTempo View Post

The general consensus sounds like I should get my thyroid in normal range again then see what my testosterone levels are looking like. The past few years my Thyroid Stimulating Hormone level has been rising slightly from in the 4's to 5's now. The VA Doc told me its only slightly out of range of Reference Range: 0.358-3.74 . Looking back to my blood from 2014 my TSH level was 2.87.
Yeah, get the thyroid under control, wait a bit, and have your T checked again. That slowly rising TSH sure looks like Hypothyroidisim though (Pituitary sends more and more TSH to the Thyroid, asking for more T3/4 - Thyroid says "piss off").

TSH
Free T3
Free T4
Reverse T3
Thyroglobulin Antibody
Thyroid Peroxidase Antibody (Anti-TPO)

Thyroid is a complicated little butterfly
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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
On February 20, 2018, President Trump issued a memorandum instructing the Attorney General “to dedicate all available resources to… propose for notice and comment a rule banning all devices that turn legal weapons into machineguns.”

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time”

“Take the guns first, go through due process second”

"Or, Mike, take the firearms first, and then go to court"
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  #193  
Old 19 August 2019, 15:46
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So, who is using what?

cream vs injection
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  #194  
Old 19 August 2019, 15:58
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So, who is using what?

cream vs injection
Injection - 100%
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  #195  
Old 19 August 2019, 16:49
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Injection - 100%
Yup 100%. Inject 3x a week. .3 ml per inject. SubQ. The thread has great info on this subject. Mostly from Polypro.
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  #196  
Old 20 August 2019, 06:38
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Injection, currently at .28 EOD (Every Other Day). Bloods coming up in Oct - .26 EOD ( the equivalent of --->) had me lower than .5 2x/week, so Doc increased it slightly. Upside is, since going smaller more often, no need for Anastrozole (AI).

Upsides for Cream/Gel are exactly 2 IMO - you have a problem even with tiny needles SubQ (?????) and/or it's all your marginal Doc will Rx for some really odd reason. IMO (again), rubbing that shit on every-single-day, for the rest of your life, would get Sooooo Oooooooold for me, YMMV. There's also transfer to kids/women to look at. And if you're injecting HCG as well....
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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
On February 20, 2018, President Trump issued a memorandum instructing the Attorney General “to dedicate all available resources to… propose for notice and comment a rule banning all devices that turn legal weapons into machineguns.”

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time”

“Take the guns first, go through due process second”

"Or, Mike, take the firearms first, and then go to court"
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  #197  
Old 20 August 2019, 10:59
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Originally Posted by Polypro View Post
There's also transfer to kids/women to look at.
Pets, too. Topical estrogen and corticosteroid transference causing issues seems more common, but any chronic steroidal hormone contact can lead to symptoms including derm, repro, metabolic, and bone marrow changes.

DaveP
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  #198  
Old 21 August 2019, 13:44
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Alright I will go with TB syringes because I know I will have a hard time doing my own injection and my wife will be too happy doing it.

This is a SQ injection right?
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  #199  
Old 21 August 2019, 16:56
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Injections for sure. I do 40 IU SUBCUTANEOUS twice a week, right in the glute or thigh, super easy after the first time, literally I can do it in 5 seconds. Your Dr. will likely prescribe something to counter the T, probably HCG as well as ANASTROZOLE.

Wait til you use that for a month or two, for me it was incredibly noticeable, not so much the sex drive but energy and strength, well worth the money. I started at 240lbs, not fat but not terribly lean either, I am now 260, much leaner and lifting far more than I ever have.

I started using IGF, Insulin-like growth factor-1, a few months ago, not sold on that just yet but I am dropping fat and notice an increase in strength as well, though honestly my lifting routine keeps me at around 70% of max to avoid injuries. I will say that at 51 years old my max for bench, squat, deadlift, and nearly everything else is now more than at any time in my life, and I have lifted since I was 12 or so.

The IGF is super expensive so I advise you don't try it unless you can afford to continue using it, it will suck when you notice results but that bill keeps coming in. Just my experience.
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  #200  
Old 21 August 2019, 18:54
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Originally Posted by Expatmedic View Post
Alright I will go with TB syringes because I know I will have a hard time doing my own injection and my wife will be too happy doing it.

This is a SQ injection right?
You can do IM but benefits are greater with subQ. Poly mentions this earlier in the thread as well.
I have done both IM and subQ and am sticking with subQ every other day.
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