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  #41  
Old 26 October 2019, 21:13
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Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
Agree with the first part. Disagree with the second. Without a physically armed meat-shield protecting them from "We, the People", many of those individuals that direct 5.0 would be worm food. Which is also the reason why they want us all disarmed.

Insert that quote about 'when the Govt fears the people there is liberty' and all that.
Hate to break it to ya, but there are as many loons representin' in the 'We The People' corner as anywhere.

I'll just keep my Constitution & Cops, thanks.
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  #42  
Old 26 October 2019, 21:18
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Not sure how that negates his point. LE is the arm of the people in power.
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  #43  
Old 26 October 2019, 21:30
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Originally Posted by Jim1348 View Post
Have you visited Minneapolis lately?
As a matter of fact, I have a farm on the MN/IA border, and I was in the Twin cities in June. So yes, I'm familiar. I also work in Chicago and other post-industrial midwest shitholes, so I am familiar with crime.

And it's not "No police" it's no "professional" police, which means Men(and even not-men) handling their own problems or just making due.

Probably 85+% of the people that make up this board get little/no value add from the municipal police forces in their area; things that they can't do for themselves, especially in the big anonymous urban shitholes. They do however spend significant $ in taxes that go to deal with dysfunctional bustouts and worthless drama.

This isn't a moral judgement, this is also tied in with my comments on dueling etc. We have prevented adult citizens from handling their own problems, by punishing those who do, then lament that citizens don't take charge of their own situation.

Another thing is that the framework of this discussion assumes that the police are there to do something TO you rather than for you. It defacto means the laws are something the majority of the populace does not want. The assumption that you need a professional body of men to enforce compliance with the law means you are not policing, you are occupying. S/F....Ken M
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  #44  
Old 26 October 2019, 21:32
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Question for the OP for clarification...when you say "Police", are you referring to all Law Enforcement Officers/Agencies, or just city Police Departments?
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  #45  
Old 26 October 2019, 21:54
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I reckon so. . .
 
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Originally Posted by Silverbullet View Post
Not sure how that negates his point. LE is the arm of the people in power.
True. And I actually get his point.

I see no difference in the Tower Dwellers running roughshod over the Law/Citizenry, and the Citizens if allowed.
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  #46  
Old 26 October 2019, 22:11
DirtyDog0311 DirtyDog0311 is offline
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Originally Posted by litepath View Post
True. And I actually get his point.

I see no difference in the Tower Dwellers running roughshod over the Law/Citizenry, and the Citizens if allowed.
IF.......


but for a longer answer --- I do. I see a large difference. I see one being despotic entrenched tyranny and the other being the risks inherent with a free society. For example: I, and some of my friends if necessary, can easily deal with some or a few drug dealing pieces of shit down the block than I can an entire institutionalized and weaponized army of "drug dealers" who cloak themselves within the legitimacy of government and operate within and from unnamed and unknown locations *coughCIAcogh*.
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  #47  
Old 26 October 2019, 22:43
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I think I get your message. And I also think you interweave two things.

One being a tyrannical.gov and the other being a citizenry sans Cops.

Dealing with the cops aspect only, I figure this inherent free society you mention isn't so great. Sure I get the Drug House thing and the Dealers who fill them, but then it tends to just go sideways in my mind. Next it's those who are living in sin, or who aren't trinitarians, and on and on. And that is where my mind wanders.

As far as the other,Tyrannical.gov I think that's a whole other subject. Related & encompassing yes, but different from the OP's thread.
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  #48  
Old 26 October 2019, 22:49
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Maybe a government mandated decimation of police forces deemed corrupt or cowardly by a overseeing body of residents in their jurisdiction aka Rome.
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  #49  
Old 26 October 2019, 22:55
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Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
IIRC, The first Congress (TJ et al) made up the US Marshals. I figured they'd know a thing or two about the Constitution. But I do not know how their original role differs from what they are now.
The Judiciary Act of 1789 from the first session. A few things have changed since then.

Last edited by Ranger275; 26 October 2019 at 23:01.
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  #50  
Old 27 October 2019, 08:45
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Interesting subject. It'd be nice if society could handle things this way, I just don't see it happening.

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Originally Posted by EchoFiveMike View Post
Probably 85+% of the people that make up this board get little/no value add from the municipal police forces in their area; things that they can't do for themselves, especially in the big anonymous urban shitholes. They do however spend significant $ in taxes that go to deal with dysfunctional bustouts and worthless drama.
This quote got me thinking. This board is mostly comprised of some of the most competent and skilled individuals you can find. I think 85% is actually a low number, the great majority on this board would not need LE to handle their dirty business. Maybe they'd need LE to record an accident report at the most.

The majority of society isn't made up of people with that kind of confidence or competence. Thanks to modern medicine, people are outliving their stupidity, druggies are revived from an OD to shoot up and steal again to get their fix. Survival of the fittest is a thing of the past in the US. Call me jaded but I can't see society as a whole policing themselves ethically and safely. The people capable of violence will impose their will and take power again. In some cases that might be a good thing. I just see it going sideways in a lot of places.

There's a lot of things that would have to change for us to get rid of professional policing. I'm not even against it if it could be done safely. I think the criminal justice system is broken, I think there's plenty cops and departments that don't get held to the fire like they should. I just don't know if the majority of US citizens could handle enforcing their own laws properly.
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  #51  
Old 27 October 2019, 08:54
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We are much better off with our LEOs than we are with out. They have their ten-percent just like all other organizations; although the impact the 10%ers have is way out of proportion to their size.

Personally, I think the two largest problems LEO organizations have is their senior leadership and no physical training on the department's payroll.

Senior LEO leadership is more of a contracted political position than an actual pipe-hitter who can mentor their rank and file, as well as lead by example. I don't compare and contrast military-style leadership with LEO-style leadership. Nonetheless, I think their senior leadership is not doing enough be the "Top Cop" their organizations need, vice the "Top Mop" for civic leaders. Berkeley and Portland come to mind as examples.

I know physical training doesn't look like a big problem, but it really is. The Army and Marines would be well and truly f*cked if they didn't have PT standards; that's done on their dime, instead of left to the individual. In this case, there is significant overlap between military and LEOs. It doesn't have to be a daily soul-crushing, and it should include hand-to-hand combat. Most importantly, it's done on "company time/company dime". Organized PT is also a opportunity to network and leaders getting "face time" with their subordinates. Another big advantage, is the ability to better absorb damage and recover more from same.

One organization I've come to loathe is the International Association of Chiefs of Police. Having a group of political appointees recommending LEO policy is not a good idea, ever. It sure-as-hell doesn't work in the military, and there's no evidence it works with first responders.

There are other problems, but I feel the two items I mentioned above would be the catalyst to solve other major problems.
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  #52  
Old 28 October 2019, 14:26
Armitage12 Armitage12 is offline
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Let me offer a different approach. Who would carry out the orders of the court as they pertain to court judgements in civil matters? I don't mean arresting a bad guy for bad things. I mean, enforcing the law that when the court says that the property boundary is X, and your neighbor still tries to claim it as his, that the sheriff comes out to enforce the civil court judgement against your neighbor? What really was the point of LE in the early frontier days, before cities and densely populated areas?
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  #53  
Old 28 October 2019, 15:32
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I think if we reinforce a "to protect and serve" mentality among police we'd be well off rather than getting rid of policing as a function. We can say that police are forgetting who they ultimately work for, but society should take the blame for letting standards slip without corrective measures being taken.

Tracy is 100% correct that leadership and physical training are huge issues. To me, that's largely a product of police unions. Too often, a union is the roadblock to getting improvement efforts underway like a mandated PT program, much the same as teachers unions derail and meaningful reform in schools.

I think we're getting what we pay for with regards to policing, and that's the problem. But I wouldn't support paying appropriately for higher quality officers unless the unions lost their power to hide under-performing ones from accountability. Get them out of the way, and cities can have good pay for officers who are able to meet standards we are missing right now.
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  #54  
Old 28 October 2019, 15:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
IIRC, The first Congress (TJ et al) made up the US Marshals. I figured they'd know a thing or two about the Constitution. But I do not know how their original role differs from what they are now.

The Park Watchmen a predecessor of the US Park Police was established two years after the Marshals. Although they spent more time dealing with winos and keeping street lamps filled than their modern counterparts.

But outside of witness protection, I don't see how the Marshals have changed much outside of the sheer size. It's still relatively small compared to the citizen base.
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  #55  
Old 28 October 2019, 16:48
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Originally Posted by Armitage12 View Post
Let me offer a different approach. Who would carry out the orders of the court as they pertain to court judgements in civil matters? I don't mean arresting a bad guy for bad things. I mean, enforcing the law that when the court says that the property boundary is X, and your neighbor still tries to claim it as his, that the sheriff comes out to enforce the civil court judgement against your neighbor? What really was the point of LE in the early frontier days, before cities and densely populated areas?
I assume we'd go back to the tried and true methods of lynching, tar and feathers, etc.
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  #56  
Old 28 October 2019, 17:56
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How so?
The lawyers have created a system where they are the only ones that are able to write and interpret our laws. In many states, the ABA has convinced the state legislatures that all judges (JP, magistrates, all) must also be attorneys because they're the only ones with the training and experience to interpret the laws. The problem with this is we all know right from wrong and could easily figure out if someone is guilty or innocent. But the lawyers have made things so damn complicated that the average person can no longer do so. You hear all these stories about innocent people jailed for decades, put on death row, or executed? They were all the subject of our legal system and they had lawyers/attorneys right there the whole time, so the idea of lawyers being the defenders of the people or the state is total bullshit. They're there to make money.
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Originally Posted by leopardprey View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, but is not a Sheriff, and his deputies, only recognized law enforcement entity in our constitution ?
The US Constitution doesn't mention the office of sheriff at all, but in many states the sheriff is a constitutional office. Florida requires all counties to have a sheriff and Virginia requires both counties and cities to have sheriffs.
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  #57  
Old 28 October 2019, 20:11
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Originally Posted by Tracy View Post
Personally, I think the two largest problems LEO organizations have is their senior leadership and no physical training on the department's payroll.
100%

This is not a small issue, but one (two) that is fully responsible for pretty much every gripe people have with LE right now.

You could narrow it down further to just Police leadership, as EVERYTHING rolls on from there.
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  #58  
Old 29 October 2019, 11:09
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Originally Posted by Gray Rhyno View Post
The lawyers have created a system where they are the only ones that are able to write and interpret our laws. In many states, the ABA has convinced the state legislatures that all judges (JP, magistrates, all) must also be attorneys because they're the only ones with the training and experience to interpret the laws. The problem with this is we all know right from wrong and could easily figure out if someone is guilty or innocent. But the lawyers have made things so damn complicated that the average person can no longer do so. You hear all these stories about innocent people jailed for decades, put on death row, or executed? They were all the subject of our legal system and they had lawyers/attorneys right there the whole time, so the idea of lawyers being the defenders of the people or the state is total bullshit. They're there to make money.
So lets kill all the lawyers, but that's not an original idea, as a writer of humble distinction from Stratford-upon-Avon came up with that line in a play a few years ago.

You made a few points, but, I'm going to ignore them as they aren't particularly interesting. However, to suggest that lawyers are all about the money, I thought I'd respond to that because it's insulting and patently false.

Dude, do you know what a starting Florida Assistant Public Defender or Assistant State Attorney makes coming out of law school? They typically have 6-figure loans after getting through undergraduate and law school. A number of them remain in public service throughout their careers, barely making over $100k. They work very long hours and many are very capable and could if they choose, move into the public sector and double their income, but they don't.

The Florida Bar doesn't require pro bono hours, but, they track hours and proactively encourage the service. Many of the large firms dedicate hundreds, if not, thousands of hours of pro bono hours without fanfare. I served as a mentor for the Veterans Treatment Court and many other attorneys were there as well, spending an entire Friday morning in court and many nights and weekends, again without fanfare. FYI, and to give you a little perspective, I dedicated over a thousand dollars (as per my hourly rate) every morning I was in the VTC. I wasn't the only attorney and many others were giving far greater monetarily because they had larger hourly rates and/or they contributed more hours in the program. So I don't need to hear how lawyers are all about the money and they're total bullshit.

BTW, how many hours of volunteer work is your profession encouraging you to give?
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  #59  
Old 29 October 2019, 11:21
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So being an attorney is akin to being Mother Teresa?

Your other emotional bits aside, no one gives a crap how much in student loans a new attorney has. That's meaningless as most everyone has student loans and not an indicator of someone being in a "do good" career field.
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  #60  
Old 29 October 2019, 12:05
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Originally Posted by Armitage12 View Post
Let me offer a different approach. Who would carry out the orders of the court as they pertain to court judgements in civil matters? I don't mean arresting a bad guy for bad things. I mean, enforcing the law that when the court says that the property boundary is X, and your neighbor still tries to claim it as his, that the sheriff comes out to enforce the civil court judgement against your neighbor? What really was the point of LE in the early frontier days, before cities and densely populated areas?
I can remember (40 plusyears ago) when the Process Server and Constable positions in some Tn. counties did this and many if not most were an unsworn (unarmed) position. This was before CCW permits etc.
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