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  #201  
Old 23 August 2019, 11:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanmcd82 View Post
I started using IGF, Insulin-like growth factor-1, a few months ago...

The IGF is super expensive so I advise you don't try it unless you can afford to continue using it, it will suck when you notice results but that bill keeps coming in. Just my experience.
You have a Doc that RX'd Increlex? Life Extension guy? What's the price compared to actual GH? GH and IGF-1 are intertwined, when one goes up, so does the other and since IGF-1 is more stable, they usually use that to gauge GH secretion.

Too expensive for my blood - I can get Ibutamoren (oral GH secretagogue) Rx'd if I want - and even that is more than I'd pay, LOL! Test and HCG does me just right.
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  #202  
Old 23 August 2019, 12:16
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Seanmcd82 Seanmcd82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polypro View Post
You have a Doc that RX'd Increlex? Life Extension guy?
I don't think that is what it is to be honest, no where in any of the info does it say Increlex, I assume that is a name brand?

What the script says is "LR3 IGF/CJC/IPA INJ,SOLN 20" if that helps.

Yes it is Rx'd by a Doctor, not sure if he identifies as a Life Extension guy, lol, but he is a Doctor. Everything I take is from the same "company".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polypro View Post
What's the price compared to actual GH?
I am not sure what GH costs, the IGF-1 is a $300 a month for me, though I definitely have a much better price than I believe 'normal' cost is. All together with the Testosterone and the other crap I pay about $500 a month for everything. I have been quoted $1200 for the same stuff by another company so I stick with the company I have been using.

I honestly wish I had more knowledge of every detail of this but I find it is hard to research and to some extent it is a bit of trial by error on my part, even though the Doctor is highly respected and has a ton of high profile clients so to some extent I sort of feel my way, see what works and what doesn't and go from there.
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  #203  
Old 23 August 2019, 14:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanmcd82 View Post

What the script says is "LR3 IGF/CJC/IPA INJ,SOLN 20" if that helps.
Ah, that looks like a peptide stack: IGF-1 LR3, CJC-1295 (without DAC probably), and Ipamorelin. Cool. What was your last IGF-1 level on the bloodwork?

(Increlex is an actual IGF-1 mimetic, just like HCG is an LH mimetic - Peptides coax your body to produce levels naturally, without burning out your H-P axis).
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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
On February 20, 2018, President Trump issued a memorandum instructing the Attorney General “to dedicate all available resources to… propose for notice and comment a rule banning all devices that turn legal weapons into machineguns.”

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time”

“Take the guns first, go through due process second”

"Or, Mike, take the firearms first, and then go to court"
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  #204  
Old 27 August 2019, 15:04
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I have an appointment this Saturday, is the any questions I should ask?
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  #205  
Old 28 August 2019, 11:05
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Originally Posted by Expatmedic View Post
I have an appointment this Saturday, is the any questions I should ask?
For HRT? I'd ask what levels (Total/Free) he considers good for therapeutic replacement. I'd ask if he's planning on Rx'ing Testosterone Cypionate or if he's going to do Creams or Gels? I'd ask what his thoughts are on Estrodiol levels? I'd ask if he's willing to try more frequent, but smaller injections, to try to avoid the use of Anastrozole (AI). I'd ask if he's also going to counter testicular atrophy (along with supplying the Leutinizing Hormone receptors all over the body, with LH) using HCG?

The answers I'd like to hear would be:

At least 800ng/dl Total T, but getting Free T to the top of the Labcorp range is most important - that may require increasing Total T, to get there. This is going to depend on SHBG levels, and since nobody really Rx's SHBG lowering drugs (Danazol) for HRT, increasing Testosterone dosage is the answer.

Using Watson Testosterone Cypionate, 200mg/ml (most economical), injected Subcutaneously into Glute fat with 25-27G 3/8"-1/2" syringes. Creams and Gels "work", but they are crazy expensive, there is a lot of waste, they are a PITA (to me, anyway) and they can transfer to children/females.

Unless developing pain or itching in breast tissue, don't get hung up on E2 levels if they go above Labcorp's max (35-40 IIRC) Estrogen does a lot of good.

As above, control E2 by doing smaller injections more frequently - ie. Take total weekly dose and divide by 7, and inject every day. I can control E2 by injecting every other day (this requires more math, since you end up with 4 injections 1 week, and 3 the next - you take weekly dosage and double it, then divide by 7).

HCG at 10 units per day (I do 20 units every other day just to line up with the T injections - perfectly fine). Be wary of crazy amounts once a week or something, we're trying to mimic the bodies daily cycle as close as possible.
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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
On February 20, 2018, President Trump issued a memorandum instructing the Attorney General “to dedicate all available resources to… propose for notice and comment a rule banning all devices that turn legal weapons into machineguns.”

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time”

“Take the guns first, go through due process second”

"Or, Mike, take the firearms first, and then go to court"
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  #206  
Old 28 August 2019, 16:46
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Yes, for HRT. I called and asked and the doc only does injections of T. They said they want to get me to the high end of the normal range of free T. I am going to print out your post and ask your questions from the list. Thanks Poly.
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  #207  
Old 29 August 2019, 08:43
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Originally Posted by Expatmedic View Post
Yes, for HRT. I called and asked and the doc only does injections of T. They said they want to get me to the high end of the normal range of free T. I am going to print out your post and ask your questions from the list. Thanks Poly.
Make sure by "the doc only does injections of T" - it means you will be injecting yourself at home. If it's some sort of massive dose once every 1 or two weeks at his office - look elsewhere.

Sure, print it out - all info is from Doctors John Crisler (RIP), Neal Rouzier, Rob Kominiarek, Rand McClean, and Keith Nichols - I'm just a Parrot.
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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
On February 20, 2018, President Trump issued a memorandum instructing the Attorney General “to dedicate all available resources to… propose for notice and comment a rule banning all devices that turn legal weapons into machineguns.”

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time”

“Take the guns first, go through due process second”

"Or, Mike, take the firearms first, and then go to court"

Last edited by Polypro; 30 August 2019 at 07:34.
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  #208  
Old 29 August 2019, 12:48
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Will be doing injections at home and will do smaller injections more often per the nurse that works at the physicians office.
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  #209  
Old 30 August 2019, 07:33
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Originally Posted by Expatmedic View Post
Will be doing injections at home and will do smaller injections more often per the nurse that works at the physicians office.
Good deal - sounds like you found a "good one"
__________________
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
On February 20, 2018, President Trump issued a memorandum instructing the Attorney General “to dedicate all available resources to… propose for notice and comment a rule banning all devices that turn legal weapons into machineguns.”

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time”

“Take the guns first, go through due process second”

"Or, Mike, take the firearms first, and then go to court"
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  #210  
Old 30 August 2019, 18:48
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Just wanted to give Poly a shout-out for reviewing my stuff today. He and my Doc are on the same plan, minus a minor procedural adjustment, which is good to know.

Considering that my results put me back (haven't TRT'd in 18 months) in the basement...we can only go up from here. And I can't wait to get started again.

Will keep everyone here posted as well.
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  #211  
Old 30 August 2019, 21:43
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Been meaning to share my own journey on TRT, so finally making some time. Massive shout out to Polypro for bringing this to the forefront, as suddenly there was a name to this thing that was going on with me. In February I made an appointment with my PCP to get labs and my results came back with a Total T of 440. Was prescribed 100mg a week IM of Test Cyp, though I could already tell that this was as far as he was willing to go. I broke my injections up into 2x a week and noticed a slight improvement, but nothing to write home about, so I went to Defy Medical and got on board with them.

March Labs:
Total Testosterone: 657ng/dl (264-916)
Free Testosterone: 23.5pg/ml (6.8-21.5)
Estradiol: 31.4 pg/ml (8.0-35.0)
SHBG” 25.5 nmol/L (16.5-55.9)

My new protocol was:
Test Cyp 150mg a week. Broken into 2x a week IM injections
HCG: 100 units a week. Broken into 2x a week SQ injections
AI: .125mg of Anastrozole to use as needed.

Everything was going great with this protocol, and then the wheels fell off….hard. I started having panic attacks. Heart racing and pounding, palpitations, an impending feeling of doom, and I am positive I was throwing PVC’s. There were nights I only managed an hour of sleep. The frequency and durations were strongest on injection days. So I ordered labs and scheduled a consult. Those labs showed the following:

June Labs:
Total Testosterone: 1,109 ng/dl (264-916)
Free Testosterone: 26.4 ng/dl (6.8-21.5)
Estradiol: 38.6 pg/ml (8.0-35.0)
Hematocrit: 49.2 % (37.5-51.0)

So the provider advised that the most likely cause is that I (like many apparently), do not react well to HCG and that is what is causing the problems. Advised to stop the HCG and now take the AI 2x a week with injections. The panic attacks were so bad I contemplated stopping this whole thing, because feeling like you are going to stroke out is horrific. The panic attacks reduce greatly as soon as I stop the HCG….but 3 weeks later they are still there….so I take an extra AI as I was instructed. I also donated a unit of blood. Still not getting better and then I stumbled across Dr Neal Rouzier online. He advised that AI’s are really bad, and that TRT users should stop chasing their E2 levels and yo-yoing all over the place. His advise is straight T….(for those that cannot manage HCG) wait 8 weeks…and slowly increase it at 8 week intervals until you feel better. The E2 levels will be what the levels will be, but your body will reach homeostasis and decide the right ratio. So he advises stop chasing your labs numbers all over the place. Listen to your body until you are optimized.

My 8 week protocol starting in July was
110mg Test Cyp SQ (broken into daily injections)
6mg of Boron daily

Panic attacks went away and felt ok. Nothing spectacular, but I was stoked to just feel slightly normal. Wanted to stabilize and see what daily injections looked like for me.

Labs as of a week ago:
Total Testosterone: 733 ng/dl (264-916)
Free Testosterone: 21.2 ng/dl (6.8-21.5)
Estradiol: 29.3 ng/dl (8.0-35.0)
SHBG: 24.8 nmol/L (16.5-55.9)

So my protocols are now:
Test Cyp: 140mg SQ a week. Broken into daily injections
Boron: 6mg daily PO
Various other vitamins and supplements.

I hadn’t seen anyone comment on the bad side effects and I thought it might help. I had read online a endocrinologist recommend boron supplementation as well, as he said 99% of his patients have 0% of it. It is apparently huge in helping to regulate testosterone, estrogen, and Vitamin D levels (of which I am deficient and taking 10,000 units of). I am also attaching a link for a interview with Dr Neal Rouzier where he explains that estrogen is really good and that people shouldn’t be taking AIs if you will.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4712861/ A paper on the benefits of Boron

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hG2tWvDpVQ Part 1 Interview with Dr Neal Rouzier

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB_aFq9O0Tc Part 2 interview with Dr Neal Rouzier
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  #212  
Old 31 August 2019, 10:04
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Good post. Dr. Saya at Defy is a smart dude. Dr. Rouzier did yeoman's work getting people off of AI's. Weird reaction to HCG, but people are different - usually HCG *may* raise E2, but never heard of panic attacks - curious what your blood CO2 levels were on all the tests? Chronic snoring can cause Hypocapnea (too much O2 = too little CO2 = panic - remember the old "breathe into a paper bag? yup). Thanks for sharing.
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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
On February 20, 2018, President Trump issued a memorandum instructing the Attorney General “to dedicate all available resources to… propose for notice and comment a rule banning all devices that turn legal weapons into machineguns.”

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time”

“Take the guns first, go through due process second”

"Or, Mike, take the firearms first, and then go to court"
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  #213  
Old 3 September 2019, 16:49
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After feeling like a weakened shell of myself for far too long, I'm finally made an appointment to go get checked.
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  #214  
Old 3 September 2019, 20:35
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I would just like to add....

Numbers don't lie, but no one should concentrate totally on the numbers. Everyone is different, all we are looking for is to feel "normal" again. I suggest focusing less on numbers and more on how you feel and react to certain protocols.

You will know when you find that sweet spot between numbers and feelings. But don't get too caught up in the numbers game....


My 2 cents....
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  #215  
Old 3 September 2019, 20:58
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Originally Posted by Toad View Post
I would just like to add....

Numbers don't lie, but no one should concentrate totally on the numbers. Everyone is different, all we are looking for is to feel "normal" again. I suggest focusing less on numbers and more on how you feel and react to certain protocols.

You will know when you find that sweet spot between numbers and feelings. But don't get too caught up in the numbers game....


My 2 cents....
If I can get back to a normal sleep schedule, not feeling anxious all the time, get my appetite back, and not dread going into work any more I'll consider it a complete success.

I was leaving the house one day and realized that if I had to have a fight for my life over my pistol, I may not fare so well.
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  #216  
Old 3 September 2019, 21:07
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Did that CBD oil I gave you help at all? You’re sort of my guinea pig for that stuff.
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  #217  
Old 3 September 2019, 21:10
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Did that CBD oil I gave you help at all? You’re sort of my guinea pig for that stuff.
Sometimes it seemed to do something, but not enough to justify the continued cost. Seemed pretty minimal Brother.
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  #218  
Old 3 September 2019, 21:25
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Originally Posted by AZ5326 View Post
If I can get back to a normal sleep schedule, not feeling anxious all the time, get my appetite back, and not dread going into work any more I'll consider it a complete success.

I was leaving the house one day and realized that if I had to have a fight for my life over my pistol, I may not fare so well.
I just went this past week for my yearly. Make it a habit, Brother. I want you to stick around long enough to enjoy your retirement and get back everything you earned by sticking it out.
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  #219  
Old 3 September 2019, 21:33
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I just went this past week for my yearly. Make it a habit, Brother. I want you to stick around long enough to enjoy your retirement and get back everything you earned by sticking it out.
I'll be fine and I'll keep on keeping on. Just want to find something to get a little bit of an edge back.
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  #220  
Old 4 September 2019, 10:52
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Total T is 216. All other lab values WNL. Guess I can be treated now. Finally.
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