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  #141  
Old 8 June 2019, 15:59
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I see both sides of the issue of whether cops should be held to a higher standard, the same standard, or cut some slack.

It's a tough one because while they wield a lot of authority/power over fellow citizens and we expect (demand?) more from them because of it, they're also, by the very nature of the job that we ask (demand?) of them to do, placed in situations where they have the opportunity to make the mistake in the first place.
Though I don't agree with the entirety if your post I understand it. I believe there's plenty of over policing ongoing in this country.

I'm also curious what precipitated you being in fights and chases all the time? People just attacked you? People didn't comply and you then took action against them?
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  #142  
Old 8 June 2019, 17:02
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I'm also curious what precipitated you being in fights and chases all the time? People just attacked you? People didn't comply and you then took action against them?
Fights and chases are just a regular part of the job. Happens all the time.

In all seriousness, most cops spend most of their time dealing with a portion of the population that most people never have to deal with...the people cops generally deal with like to fight, and they don't like to get caught, so they fight, and they run.
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  #143  
Old 8 June 2019, 17:42
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Though I don't agree with the entirety if your post I understand it. I believe there's plenty of over policing ongoing in this country.
I don't disagree on the over-policing. I think we ask/allow/expect police to do too much. I'm not sure if that part was with regard to my post, or just you stating your POV.

E5M posted this in another thread and my reply follows:

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Originally Posted by EchoFiveMike View Post
Now, I fully believe that the American Man has delegated far too much authority to "professional" policing, but if we're going to be paying for this "service", they should be held to deliver on it. I think proactive policing is un-American, and cops sitting around watching netflix is better than fucking with people so they look like they're doing something. But when it's time to take a deep breath, say a short prayer and execute, nothing else is acceptable.
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This is 10-ring stuff. A) The taxpayer pays for a service. Your job is to provide it. If you don't, or at least try to, then you're basically committing fraud. You took a taxpayer-funded paycheck for years under the premise that you would handle business if/when the time came, and then you declined to do so when required. B) What that service consists of has been distorted over the years. It went from "Wild Bill is shooting up the town. Go get the Marshal." to asking LE to do everything we can't/won't do for ourselves as men.

I am pro-LE. Hell, I was one for awhile. I want them to be the most highly trained, capable, bravest, baddest motherfuckers around. I want them there when needed. And I don't when they're not.
That's it in a nutshell for me as far as what I expect out of LE. I'd really prefer them to be more along the lines of Firemen. Just kind of there- BBQing, sleeping, watching Netflix ()- until needed. Being out and patrolling is not so bad because it allows prevention of crime vs. simply response to crime, but sometimes I think that turns into "looking for something...anything...to justify my existence" vs. just being on the lookout for stuff. A quiet night, where you feel like you got paid for nothing, should be a GOOD thing.

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I'm also curious what precipitated you being in fights and chases all the time? People just attacked you? People didn't comply and you then took action against them?
I worked in a large metro area. When you're a rookie in Patrol, you get the shitty shifts and the worst beat assignment. I worked deep nights 7p-7a, end of the week/weekend, in the worst beat in the worst district. Lots of gangbangers, dope, and the shit that comes with it. Major interstates nearby = lots of activity because it's how people move around.

On top of that, I was young and clean cut- which probably caused more than a few people to think they could fuck with me.

Like Gavin said, you're not really interacting with Joe Sixpack because Joe Sixpack isn't committing crimes and/or doesn't need you for anything unless he calls you. The people you're dealing with are just a different element. What's a Resisting charge or a Fleeing/Evading charge when you're facing a lot of time for the major felony you've committed or have an arrest warrant for? Doesn't cost you much to try to get away. Things aren't really worse for you if you don't, but at least you gave it a shot.

And sometimes shit just happens. Worst fight I've ever been in in my life was with a guy who hadn't done a damn thing wrong and wasn't in any trouble. He said, "Officer, I just want to let you know that I'm about to fuck you up", as politely as can be, and then it was fucking on.

He even told the judge that he fought me and tried to take my gun to shoot me with it...just because he hates the po-lice and fights them every chance he gets.

That's not the norm, but the point is the kind of people you're usually dealing with- unless you're working dayshift in the nice part of town- are much more likely to fight for any number of reasons.
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  #144  
Old 8 June 2019, 21:45
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If you're working in a sporty area and not getting into chases and possibly fights on a regular basis you're a waste of taxpayer money.
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  #145  
Old 8 June 2019, 22:03
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If you're working in a sporty area and not getting into chases and possibly fights on a regular basis you're a waste of taxpayer money.
But you have a bright future in command and administration!
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  #146  
Old 8 June 2019, 22:45
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Originally Posted by KS11 View Post
I see both sides of the issue of whether cops should be held to a higher standard, the same standard, or cut some slack.

It's a tough one because while they wield a lot of authority/power over fellow citizens and we expect (demand?) more from them because of it, they're also, by the very nature of the job that we ask (demand?) of them to do, placed in situations where they have the opportunity to make the mistake in the first place.

As a police officer, I was in fights, chases, etc all the time. I had the opportunity, within the context of rapidly changing and volatile situations, to make the wrong split-second decision at the wrong time. Because it was my job to be in that situation.

As a private citizen, I'm not in those situations. Because that's not my job.

I'm not going to chase a suspect down a dark alley and then mistake a cellphone for a gun...because I'm not going to be chasing a suspect down a dark alley in the first place.

So yeah, it's a tough one and it's kind of hard to grasp if you haven't been there. Wisdom combined with similar experience can substitute for the "been there" part, which is why many here are pretty fair despite having no direct LE experience, but the general public is a different animal. Which is why you usually have two clearly defined camps- the Thin Blue Line/1* camp and the "fuck cops, they should be held accountable just like I would" camp.

Reality is a moving target and takes some wisdom to locate at times, which sadly, is rare these days.
Well said.
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  #147  
Old 8 June 2019, 23:15
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But you have a bright future in command and administration!
No time to study if you're out chasing shitheads!
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"The real problem was being able to stick it out, to sit in an office under the orders of a wee man in a dark gray suit and look out of the window and recall the bush country, the waving palms, the smell of sweat and cordite, the grunts of the men hauling jeeps over the river crossings, the copper-tasting fears just before the attack, and the wild, cruel joy of being alive afterward. To remember, and then go back to the ledgers and the commuter train, that was impossible. He knew he would eat his heart out if it ever came to that."

- "The Dogs of War" by Frederick Forsyth
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  #148  
Old 8 June 2019, 23:23
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Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
If you're working in a sporty area and not getting into chases and possibly fights on a regular basis you're a waste of taxpayer money.
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Originally Posted by gavin View Post
But you have a bright future in command and administration!
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Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
No time to study if you're out chasing shitheads!
This is funny sad but also funny haha. Mainly because it’s true.
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  #149  
Old 9 June 2019, 01:10
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No time to study if you're out chasing shitheads!
Some people forgo doing the work and focus their time/effort on making sure all the right boxes are checked, the right hands have been shaken, and the proper asses have been kissed to allow them to move the next rung up the ladder.

You mean to tell me that somebody's gotta do the actual work?
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  #150  
Old 9 June 2019, 08:19
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I don't disagree on the over-policing. I think we ask/allow/expect police to do too much. I'm not sure if that part was with regard to my post, or just you stating your POV
The over policing is part of my POV. I think it directly contributes to all the "chasing shitheads" or non joe six pack you and others in this thread are speaking about. That is why I don't completely agree with your earlier post that the job puts police in position to have to make split second decisions.

On some occasions, that's probably accurate. On others I believe it's the person wearing the uniform who caused that to happen.

You even touched on it in this latest response.

Thanks for the explanation.
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  #151  
Old 9 June 2019, 13:33
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Originally Posted by Silverbullet View Post
The over policing is part of my POV. I think it directly contributes to all the "chasing shitheads" or non joe six pack you and others in this thread are speaking about. That is why I don't completely agree with your earlier post that the job puts police in position to have to make split second decisions.

On some occasions, that's probably accurate. On others I believe it's the person wearing the uniform who caused that to happen.

You even touched on it in this latest response.

Thanks for the explanation.
So ideally, you would like to see an end to “proactive policing” (patrolling) and have police go to more of a reactionary organization, like firefighters? Genuinely asking.
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  #152  
Old 9 June 2019, 16:03
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Originally Posted by Silverbullet View Post
The over policing is part of my POV. I think it directly contributes to all the "chasing shitheads" or non joe six pack you and others in this thread are speaking about. That is why I don't completely agree with your earlier post that the job puts police in position to have to make split second decisions.

On some occasions, that's probably accurate. On others I believe it's the person wearing the uniform who caused that to happen.

You even touched on it in this latest response.

Thanks for the explanation.
Joe Sixpack just means law-abiding people who have virtually no interaction with police. The fact that most law-abiding people don’t deal with the police much is kind of a good thing. That’s kind of the point of it all.

The flip side of that is the person who falls into the group of people who, through their criminal actions, require policing.

Of course, they are all citizens protected under the Constitution, and should be treated as such. Even the lowest of the low has rights and is innocent until proven guilty.

Relationships are push/pull and I think most disagreements are over which it is. With SOME officers, it’s a push relationship between themselves and the public. They police people. Overpolicing falls there.

(From my experience, which isn’t all that much) For a lot of officers, and a lot of LE in general, it’s a pull relationship where they are policing because those people, by their actions, are requiring themselves to be policed.

I didn’t use the term “chasing shitheads”, but that can be a push or pull term. If some guy is breaking into cars/houses and stealing stuff, and I’m having to chase/catch, arrest/fight...well, that’s not me overpolicing (push). He’s the one making it happen (pull).

I don’t like being bothered over little stuff. I don’t think police officers wear capes and exist to save us all. Some feel that way, like it’s a divine calling. For most- at least for all of my buddies- it’s just what they do to earn a living. It’s their profession.

I cut “pull” officers a lot more slack than I do supercop “push” types.
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  #153  
Old 9 June 2019, 19:16
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Chasing shitheads was my term. It's not PC, but that's what they are. We and I'm sure most other cities of any size have a population of full time criminals who do nothing but go through life robbing, shooting, stealing, selling drugs, and doing a million other little things that lower the quality of life for everyone around them. I consider making their lives difficult within the bounds of the law an essential police function. They are literally out there every day all day and you just have to act like a grizzly catching salmon. It's hard NOT to interact with them, although there are plenty of officers who put the blinders on and hide for eight hours or try to get an inside job. I have very little respect for those people and don't consider them real cops at all.
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"The real problem was being able to stick it out, to sit in an office under the orders of a wee man in a dark gray suit and look out of the window and recall the bush country, the waving palms, the smell of sweat and cordite, the grunts of the men hauling jeeps over the river crossings, the copper-tasting fears just before the attack, and the wild, cruel joy of being alive afterward. To remember, and then go back to the ledgers and the commuter train, that was impossible. He knew he would eat his heart out if it ever came to that."

- "The Dogs of War" by Frederick Forsyth
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  #154  
Old 9 June 2019, 19:29
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LE is what it is today -- not because the "profession" wanted to become this beast. It is what it is because "people" created it by becoming scared, dependent, and lazy. LE doesn't want to do much of what it does and is *now* expected to do. Many want to do what they hired on for -- putting truly bad people in jail -- not doing half of what they are now expected to do.
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  #155  
Old 9 June 2019, 19:50
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"People"? Well, we let populations groups vote that will statistically favor security over liberty, and coincidentally this empowers politicians and other elites.

If "the police" disappeared tomorrow, once people figured out they were really gone, you'd have a comparatively short period of absolute carnage and then peace and freedom unlike anything any living American has ever known. S/F....Ken M
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  #156  
Old 9 June 2019, 19:56
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Originally Posted by EchoFiveMike View Post
"People"? Well, we let populations groups vote that will statistically favor security over liberty, and coincidentally this empowers politicians and other elites.

If "the police" disappeared tomorrow, once people figured out they were really gone, you'd have a comparatively short period of absolute carnage and then peace and freedom unlike anything any living American has ever known. S/F....Ken M
Yep...and those politicians and elites are the parasites that live off of the weak and timid people who need LE to tell their neighbors that their dogs are barking too much and their music is too loud. They need LE to "spank" their unruly 12-year-old who threatened mom with a knife because her "time-out" method of punishment isn't working when dad is away. Yep...LE is what it is because of the populace.
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  #157  
Old 9 June 2019, 20:21
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People literally call 911 for out of control 9 year olds. Like, I heard that call dispatched last week.
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"The real problem was being able to stick it out, to sit in an office under the orders of a wee man in a dark gray suit and look out of the window and recall the bush country, the waving palms, the smell of sweat and cordite, the grunts of the men hauling jeeps over the river crossings, the copper-tasting fears just before the attack, and the wild, cruel joy of being alive afterward. To remember, and then go back to the ledgers and the commuter train, that was impossible. He knew he would eat his heart out if it ever came to that."

- "The Dogs of War" by Frederick Forsyth
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  #158  
Old 10 June 2019, 02:29
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People literally call 911 for out of control 9 year olds. Like, I heard that call dispatched last week.
Tap dripping? Call the Police.

See a dead body? Move on, nothing to see here. Don't call those racist cops.

Have seen both incidents, repeatedly.

99% of Police consistently deal with 1% of the population. That's my made up statistic, but I would wager it's not far off the mark. But they CONSTANTLY deal with that same 1% time and time again. And those interactions are not always polite and civil, because that 1% of the population are...well...parasites.

Had a discussion recently with a former Army Lt Col, asking me why former Police with no military experience generally (his term) showed a preference for "managing" people over "leading" them. I explained to him that it's an embedded organizational trait, where those in authority of Police, get promoted by showing how they've disciplined and "controlled" Police, not led them operationally. For me I believe the promotion routes of Policing is flawed. To have any chance of getting into the upper ranks of a large Policing organisation, you HAVE to focus on career over doing the job.

I think LE should follow the Military (uh oh, "militarization of Police"!!!), and have direct entry into Commissioned Ranks, and let the enlisted ranks actually do the job that is expected of them by the Public.

Would that have helped in this instance of a poorly-trained immigrant shooting an innocent? It may have impacted the training and recruiting processes that led to the incident, by ensuring better recruiting and improved training.

It may...or it may not have.
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