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  #21  
Old 23 June 2019, 18:35
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  #22  
Old 23 June 2019, 19:37
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Originally Posted by wildman43 View Post
I wish you could see the images from the Body Cam of the TO.

They have shown it on the news several times. If it is every posted where I can down load it, to the site here.


A few individuals will eat the words they posted.
Maybe it's just the asshole in me, but your choice of emoji's are not warranted in the thread. In fact, it is insulting to the death of the young LEO being honored for her sacrifice.
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  #23  
Old 23 June 2019, 20:33
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Zero funerals is better than 1 funeral.
Is it known if there was a realistic chance of recovering her without additional casualties?
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  #24  
Old 23 June 2019, 20:55
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Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
Is it known if there was a realistic chance of recovering her without additional casualties?
No idea, because it appears they held back and waited 40min for an armored vehicle to arrive. Apparently, there is no other way to solve a problem than by SOP. And because, you know, they could tell ahead of time that her wounds were not survivable.

Since when do we only act if we think we can guarantee success? Since when is a brother's life (or in this case, a sister) not worth risking our own? Since when do we turtle up vs. take decisive action?

If a bear was carrying off your kid, do you say "The bear has a massive advantage over me since I don't have my bear gun with me. Better to just lose my kid than both of us get hurt" or do you fight the fucking bear with whatever you have at your disposal?
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Last edited by KS11; 23 June 2019 at 21:23.
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  #25  
Old 24 June 2019, 06:02
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Is there Cop thinking verses Military thinking about leaving a wounded comrade in the line of fire?

Saying that SOP calls for delay sounds pretty weak when watching a friend die.
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  #26  
Old 24 June 2019, 07:51
gymrat8541 gymrat8541 is offline
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Originally Posted by edd1e22 View Post
Based on an article regarding the incident which referenced transcripts of the radio calls, officers on scene requested permission to perform rescue but were told to stand down and wait for a bearcat armored vehicle.
I read the same thing. A K-9 team made multiple request to go after the downed officer and each time they were denied. If I can find the article I will post the link where they state the suspect had a scanner and was monitoring the officers communications as well as surveillance cameras.
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  #27  
Old 24 June 2019, 10:33
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Originally Posted by Ole crusty bastard View Post
Is there Cop thinking verses Military thinking about leaving a wounded comrade in the line of fire?

Saying that SOP calls for delay sounds pretty weak when watching a friend die.
No and agreed.
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  #28  
Old 24 June 2019, 10:38
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Originally Posted by Dangerous View Post
I saw it. My take was that police department is full of glad-handing politicians who hand-wring when confronted by crisis.

It is easy to Monday morning quarterbacking after the fact.

Suppressive firepower wins that battle, something not practiced there.

Officer, Rest In Peace.
If they had unloaded on that house to keep his head down......Jesus..... I could see that thread.

I believe there is a thread regarding a M249 SAW that was an “agency buyback”. Is suppressive fire something your good with law enforcement training for and utilizing?

MODs,

Can we open a separate thread on this? I feel like we are detracting from original point of this thread.
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  #29  
Old 24 June 2019, 11:53
gymrat8541 gymrat8541 is offline
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Originally Posted by Whitebean54 View Post
If they had unloaded on that house to keep his head down......Jesus..... I could see that thread.

I believe there is a thread regarding a M249 SAW that was an “agency buyback”. Is suppressive fire something your good with law enforcement training for and utilizing?

MODs,

Can we open a separate thread on this? I feel like we are detracting from original point of this thread.
Not to derail it anymore than what is has been but, yes, I attended a training course in which we practiced using sustained accurate fire on the location where the suspect was engaging us from.
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  #30  
Old 24 June 2019, 12:02
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Not to derail it anymore than what is has been but, yes, I attended a training course in which we practiced using sustained accurate fire on the location where the suspect was engaging us from.
Basic patrolmen level class or more advanced “senior patrolmen”?

Your profile is a little confusing, are you a cop that does EP or is it private EP and you are also a cop?

There are agencies that will not let their people run more than 10 over the speed limit to a shots fried or other violent call because of the “liability”. The idea that suppressive fire would ever be taught is a laughable concept.
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  #31  
Old 24 June 2019, 12:27
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This is my Last post on this subject, The female LOE was shot several times by a Military High Power rifle. This weapon also Disabled a NON MILITARY TYPE SWAT Vehicle. The one used to get to her is a MILITARY STYLE Vehicle from the PD city where I live. I also know a couple of the LEO's on the SWAT Team.


LETS get back on subject i.e. RIP

Last edited by wildman43; 24 June 2019 at 12:56.
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  #32  
Old 24 June 2019, 14:16
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Originally Posted by KS11 View Post
Since when do we only act if we think we can guarantee success? Since when is a brother's life (or in this case, a sister) not worth risking our own? Since when do we turtle up vs. take decisive action?

If a bear was carrying off your kid, do you say "The bear has a massive advantage over me since I don't have my bear gun with me. Better to just lose my kid than both of us get hurt" or do you fight the fucking bear with whatever you have at your disposal?
Excuse the hell out of me for having an opinion. Rule #1 is don't become an additional casualty. Unless you have some information I'm not privy to how about not assuming cowardice? Since you want to get personal about it, I'm sure if you were there you would have heroically sacrificed yourself. Bravo. Maybe the officers who were actually fucking there, knew the wounded officer personally and made a hard decision had better insight on the situation than somebody Monday morning quarterbacking them from the safety of a keyboard.
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  #33  
Old 24 June 2019, 16:03
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The dispatcher who handled the call just adopted a shelter dog to train as a therapy dog, and named it in honor of Officer Sullivan.
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  #34  
Old 24 June 2019, 17:51
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Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
Excuse the hell out of me for having an opinion. Rule #1 is don't become an additional casualty. Unless you have some information I'm not privy to how about not assuming cowardice? Since you want to get personal about it, I'm sure if you were there you would have heroically sacrificed yourself. Bravo. Maybe the officers who were actually fucking there, knew the wounded officer personally and made a hard decision had better insight on the situation than somebody Monday morning quarterbacking them from the safety of a keyboard.
--"Rule #1- don't become an additional casualty" relates to tactics. Being willing to assume a little risk is a mindset/mentality.

You were a Marine, yes? Did you ever say or think "I am willing to give my life for the man next to me", or something along those lines? That's not a tactical statement. It's simply an acknowledgement that you'll put your ass on the line for your brothers.

That's why when a fellow officer yells for help, you probably haul ass vs. following the posted speed limit and coming to a complete stop at every stop sign/redlight. No, you aren't completely reckless- because you can't help if you don't get there ("don't become an additional casualty")- but you DO take calculated risk vs. avoiding it altogether.

I'm not critical of their specific tactics. That would be Monday morning QBing. I HAVE been, and will continue to be, critical of risk-avoidance while an officer lay dying.

--I didn't assume cowardice and said nothing regarding that.

--I wouldn't have "sacrificed" myself, heroically or not. Taking action does not equate to sacrificing oneself. Complete false choice/dilemma there.

--I also didn't make it personal toward you at all. I'll argue points/opinions, but I don't do personal attacks- really ever- especially not over the internet and directed at people who I don't even know. My points raised in the form of questions were directed at the LE community as a whole- a community that I used to be a part of, albeit a couple of decades ago. The usage of "you" was the royal "you", not YOU you. I thought that was pretty obvious, but my apologies if not.

--I'm not from that area, don't know anyone involved, so there are no personal feelings on my end. I don't like hearing about cops getting killed and I feel for her family/coworkers, but her death isn't a personal loss to me. I'm simply professionally stunned that they waited and justified it as "we didn't want to risk anyone else getting hurt." Not being reckless isn't the same thing as complete risk-avoidance.

--This situation isn't much different than Columbine in the sense that waiting for the perfect tool is not the right answer. Waiting for SWAT vs. waiting for a bearcat. With active shooters, officers are taught that "There is no time to wait. No, it's not ideal for only 2 to go in. Yes, a trained SWAT team would be more suited to the task, but they aren't on scene and people are dying. Yes, there is a lot of risk involved to the officers...but you go. Action, right NOW, while imperfect, beats waiting."

Same thing here. "SWAT and a bearcat would be nice, but they aren't here and there's no time to wait. Figure it out. Find a solution. Solve the problem."

--Their own comments tell the story. Words have meaning. "We had to wait for the bearcat or more officers would have been murdered" (their explanation) isn't the same thing as "we did everything we could, ultimately utilizing an armored vehicle once it arrived." "we had to wait" = "if we had tried anything else..." = "we didn't have any other options" = a predetermined calculation vs. developing the situation.

I don't advocate recklessness, but their statement indicates risk-avoidance while an officer lay dying.

Saying that they knew "her wounds were unsurvivable" as a rationalization for their decision to hold back until the bearcat arrived is horseshit. There are very few injuries that can be eyeballed and called as "unsurvivable" from a distance. They decided that after the fact and used it to justify their decisions. That says more to me than anything else in this situation. **I will add a caveat to that: The possibility that she suffered an injury that could have been deemed "unsurvivable" from a distance, while virtually nil, is non-zero. The chance that an injury like that existed from a rifle round, while virtually nil, is non-zero. I'm comfortable with the probability that it didn't happen. I've seen it, in person, too many times to know better.

In a nutshell, my issue is with the mindset of "we have to wait until we have the perfect tool for this problem because anything else is too risky." That's cool, except when people are dying.

Don't have that perfect tool? Look around you, see what you have at your disposal, use your head, and solve the problem. SOPs/policies are obviously important, but they are guidelines. Blind adherence to them is the same thing as "zero tolerance" in schools. It's just an abdication of the responsibility to think for yourself and act. When the situation throws a wrinkle in your SOPs, then you figure it out.
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  #35  
Old 24 June 2019, 18:39
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KS-11 PM on the way to you
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  #36  
Old 24 June 2019, 21:52
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The weapon photo below looks something like photo of the rifle that the sob was using to shoot at the LEO' s shot O'Sullivan with.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 06_50_24_834_Barrett_M82_05.jpg (22.3 KB, 154 views)
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  #37  
Old 24 June 2019, 23:52
Akheloce Akheloce is online now
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Originally Posted by wildman43 View Post
The weapon photo below looks something like photo of the rifle that the sob was using to shoot at the LEO' s shot O'Sullivan with.
You mean it's black and has a fucking magazine?

That pic you posted is a Barrett M82 50 Cal.

Are you telling me that you don't know the difference between an AR-15 and an M82?

In your previous rant about this tragedy, you kept saying things like "military rifle"... so it was an M-16/M4 with select fire?. You have no idea WTF you are talking about. You should stay quiet on things you don't have a clue on.



RIP Officer O'Sullivan
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  #38  
Old 24 June 2019, 23:53
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Originally Posted by wildman43 View Post
your photo

The photo you posted shows a barrett. The photos of the weapon I saw from the news briefing shown by SPD was a .223 AR-15 variant that was supposedly built from an 80% lower.
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  #39  
Old 25 June 2019, 01:39
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I know the difference, But had not see a good picture of the weapons All I knew was that he had High Power Military Weapons They had to clear out a complete Block as the rounds were going thru houses. I know the difference between an M-1, M-14 AR-16 M-16, the M-4 etc. Oh yea a 30 cal water cool MG,
How to bread down a BAR, an a few other How about a Burp as we called it, Do you know how bore site an 3.5 Rocket launcher, used . There have been several different pictures popping up.
This old man knows a lot about weapons. Now some of the New toys out their I leave that up the younger Guys.
Yes I know what I posted the picture of, was not sure until I saw a better picture of the weapon DID YOU Notice one picture had part of the weapon was yellow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akheloce View Post
You mean it's black and has a fucking magazine?

That pic you posted is a Barrett M82 50 Cal.

Are you telling me that you don't know the difference between an AR-15 and an M82?

In your previous rant about this tragedy, you kept saying things like "military rifle"... so it was an M-16/M4 with select fire?. You have no idea WTF you are talking about. You should stay quiet on things you don't have a clue on.



RIP Officer O'Sullivan

Last edited by wildman43; 25 June 2019 at 01:45.
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  #40  
Old 25 June 2019, 02:08
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I read a report that said they initially responded with a Lenco Bearcat to recover the wounded officer but the armored car became disabled because it ran over some kind of obstruction while breaking through a fence and ripped out the oil pan.

I have not been able to find confirmation of that from any other sources however. But if true, that might explain why they waited for the MRAP or whatever.

The police term for suppressive fire (at least around here) is "directed fire" and it's appropriate under certain limited circumstances.

It usually takes at least a week after an incident like this before a coherent description of events becomes publically available.
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