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  #21  
Old 30 May 2020, 08:06
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I've seen all the excuses for Lee, but the it's clear he wasn't that good of a tactician either. Gettysburg was the icing on the cake in that regard to me. Many seem to confuse the heroics displayed by the average CSA soldier as something Lee caused instead of looking at his blunders and poor decisions under stress.

All in all Grant was a much superior leader and solider IMO.

Yup...Gettysburg lost the war.
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  #22  
Old 30 May 2020, 08:18
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Good TV show just watched on Sun Tzu’s Art of War - applying the principles to Gettysburg and how Lee and the confederates violates the rules, and the Union embraced them.


Art of War by Art of War https://itunes.apple.com/us/tv-seaso...r/id1488181119
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Last edited by leopardprey; 30 May 2020 at 08:26.
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  #23  
Old 30 May 2020, 12:40
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All in all Grant was a much superior leader and solider IMO.
Perhaps. Gettysburg wasn't Lee's only tactical blunder (his early West Virginia actions were a fiasco). I suppose you don't really have to outrun the bear as long as you can outrun the slow fat kid. Both Lee and Grant got away with doing things that built their reputation as tacticians but only succeeded because they were facing incompetent opponents (there are many parallels between Grant at Shiloh and Lee at Sharpsburg, or Grant at Vicksburg and Lee at Chancellorsville). By the time they faced each other, the outcome of the war had already been settled by events elsewhere such that Grant was committed to a campaign of attrition in which tactics could be discarded and Lee was stuck with fighting a delaying action in which the best application of tactics would only delay the inevitable.
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  #24  
Old 30 May 2020, 16:49
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I'm well aware Gettysburg wasn't Lee's only blunder, which to be clear was more than a tactical one. His entire strategy sucked.

If you want to draw a parallel between him and Grant, have at it. I'm not all ate up one way or the other. At the end of the day Grant won.
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  #25  
Old 30 May 2020, 16:53
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Getting way into it... I think Longstreet had a better grasp on the CSA position and what they needed to do stratergery wise to remotely have a shot at a win. But that’s waaay into it.

ETA: Grant done what he needed to do to win the war. Lincoln put him there for that purpose.
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  #26  
Old 30 May 2020, 19:36
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Originally Posted by Silverbullet View Post
I've seen all the excuses for Lee, but the it's clear he wasn't that good of a tactician either. Gettysburg was the icing on the cake in that regard to me. Many seem to confuse the heroics displayed by the average CSA soldier as something Lee caused instead of looking at his blunders and poor decisions under stress.

All in all Grant was a much superior leader and solider IMO.
To play Devil's Advocate for a minute- I get Lee's deficiencies, but the guy had a literally no-win mission, and nearly pulled it off. I mean if the Union had not captured the battle orders that were wrapped in a couple of cigars, Antietam would have likely been a Confederate victory, and left Washington exposed to attack.

Likewise, at Gettysburg, if Chamberlain hadn't been such a stud with his ammo-less bayonet charge at Little Round Top, the Confederates would have likely turned the Union flank and again, resulting in defeat and leaving Washington exposed. I don't think the north could have suffered many more defeats after the first 2 years of the war without being forced to stop.

Lee certainly wasn't a good logistician, but then again, what the hell good are logistics when half your army has to march barefoot? I think he had audacity, and audacity was really the only chance they had to win.
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  #27  
Old 30 May 2020, 21:05
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Lee was given the best fighting men in our country and couldn't win. I don't agree for a second he was in a no win situation.

Lee lost control at Gettysburg because he was unable to make rapid changes in plans to accommodate union actions. Chamberlain acted due to the naval gazing delays in Lee issuing timely orders. Yes it was stupid, but his boss wasn't doing much at the time.

Your point about Antietam isn't chronology accurate. Lee knew almost immediately his general order had been lost and was going to withdraw further back into Virginia to regroup. Instead once he heard Stonewall Jackson had captured Harpers Ferry, he ill-advisably created a hasty plan and continued with his movement north, where he got beat.
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  #28  
Old 30 May 2020, 21:52
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Originally Posted by 1RiserSlip View Post
Getting way into it... I think Longstreet had a better grasp on the CSA position and what they needed to do stratergery wise to remotely have a shot at a win. But that’s waaay into it.

ETA: Grant done what he needed to do to win the war. Lincoln put him there for that purpose.
Longstreet was misused. He was better than those he served.

Best thing that ever happened to either Army was when Mr. Lincoln put Grant in charge of all the Union Armies. Something the Southerners never did; instead maintaining many separate armies with one sole asshole/backbiting/nepotist at the tyrannical helm.

ETA. Et1 SS nuke thanks for those links. I'll check em.
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Last edited by litepath; 30 May 2020 at 21:58. Reason: ETA
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  #29  
Old 1 June 2020, 09:40
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ET1/ss nuke , if you've got a reference on that post Civil War Famine I'd appreciate it.
billdawg, if you've got references for the black man proudly serving in the armed ranks of the CSA, I'd appreciate it.
I'll have to try and find the pics and letters I saw at a museum some time ago.
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  #30  
Old 1 June 2020, 09:43
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Originally Posted by Silverbullet View Post
I've seen all the excuses for Lee, but the it's clear he wasn't that good of a tactician either. Gettysburg was the icing on the cake in that regard to me. Many seem to confuse the heroics displayed by the average CSA soldier as something Lee caused instead of looking at his blunders and poor decisions under stress.

All in all Grant was a much superior leader and solider IMO.
Part of the Gettysburg fiasco, was due to Jeb Stuart, forgetting his mission of being Lee's eyes & ears and trying to cover himself in glory by robbing a supply train. The CSA needed the material, but Lee was basically blind, when he needed it most.
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  #31  
Old 1 June 2020, 10:03
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Originally Posted by billdawg View Post
Part of the Gettysburg fiasco, was due to Jeb Stuart, forgetting his mission of being Lee's eyes & ears and trying to cover himself in glory by robbing a supply train. The CSA needed the material, but Lee was basically blind, when he needed it most.
Then failed his mission during the battle by being blocked by George Custer’s Cavalry.

Lots of hits and misses in that battle. Hood should’ve went around the 20th Maine’s flank. Ego got to Lee.
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  #32  
Old 1 June 2020, 18:50
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Yup...Gettysburg lost the war.
It would have happened eventually even with a CSA victory at Gettysburg.

The Confederacy was never going to win that war. The disparity between the North and South in population, industrial capacity, railroads, etc. was never going to be overcome. Top that off with the complete lack of a navy to fight the Union blockade which robbed them of money, and the Confederacy was doomed from the start.

A victory by Lee at Gettysburg would have just prolonged the inevitable until Grant or someone else took command and proceeded to conduct a war of attrition.
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  #33  
Old 2 June 2020, 11:43
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It would have happened eventually even with a CSA victory at Gettysburg.

The Confederacy was never going to win that war. The disparity between the North and South in population, industrial capacity, railroads, etc. was never going to be overcome. Top that off with the complete lack of a navy to fight the Union blockade which robbed them of money, and the Confederacy was doomed from the start.

A victory by Lee at Gettysburg would have just prolonged the inevitable until Grant or someone else took command and proceeded to conduct a war of attrition.
The first couple of years the Confederacy won many battles. Without outside intervention, they were doomed for the reasons you stated IMO. This is where I think Longstreet may have been more effective.
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  #34  
Old 2 June 2020, 18:57
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Originally Posted by KillRoy View Post
It would have happened eventually even with a CSA victory at Gettysburg.

The Confederacy was never going to win that war. The disparity between the North and South in population, industrial capacity, railroads, etc. was never going to be overcome. Top that off with the complete lack of a navy to fight the Union blockade which robbed them of money, and the Confederacy was doomed from the start.

A victory by Lee at Gettysburg would have just prolonged the inevitable until Grant or someone else took command and proceeded to conduct a war of attrition.
I don't know. If he won Gettysburg and marched on the capital and got an armistice or treaty it would have been the green light England needed to invade NY from Canada. Keeping the north busy for quite some time.
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  #35  
Old 4 June 2020, 09:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leopardprey View Post
Good TV show just watched on Sun Tzuís Art of War - applying the principles to Gettysburg and how Lee and the confederates violates the rules, and the Union embraced them.


Art of War by Art of War https://itunes.apple.com/us/tv-seaso...r/id1488181119

Is this an iTunes exclusive?
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  #36  
Old 4 June 2020, 09:40
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Regardless of your POV, if you have the opportunity take the Gettysburg walking tour or organized historical event.

I've done it twice, once in the Corps and a few years later as part of a Wharton program. Learned something new each time.
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  #37  
Old 4 June 2020, 10:20
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Regardless of your POV, if you have the opportunity take the Gettysburg walking tour or organized historical event.

I've done it twice, once in the Corps and a few years later as part of a Wharton program. Learned something new each time.
We did a two-day battlefield study when I was in the SNCO Advanced Course at Quantico. The staff had it dialed in. We even "replicated" Pickett's Charge; walking, running, etc. while the staff narrated what was going on around us. Gave me a new perspective on the battle.
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  #38  
Old 5 June 2020, 07:43
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Is this an iTunes exclusive?
No idea. I know you can buy the DVD on Amazon. Is worth it IMO.

Seems Grant is not available on I Tunes or Amazon Prime - the only two services I have.
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  #39  
Old 6 June 2020, 07:02
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Great show, learned allot. Some of the actors really portrayed the images of the Generals very well..
And the ending with Mark Twain, that was a interesting bit. Helped Grants family out significantly.
Its easy to look at the failures and successes over time. But, during that time, there was as much god luck as well as bad luck during the war.
Grant was portrayed as a man in his element in battle, and it showed.
Lee was a General, like his Father and that may be why he was unapproachable according to Grant. Lee may have been a bit head strong...
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