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  #61  
Old 15 July 2017, 21:17
8654maine 8654maine is offline
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Originally Posted by Whitebean54 View Post
The shit happens often.... It doesn't fit the narrative to put it out in national news though. This particular case was like page 47 below the fold of the local paper. Then nothing after it.

Good friend of mine is looking at being indicted for killing a guy in a crash. His speed was the predominate factor. I love him like a brother, he's a salt of the earth guy, but he fucked up and a guys dead. He owns it like a man and will accept what punishment is decided for him. It's in the hands of a grand jury, like the above mentioned case was.

A member of this site investigates almost nothing but officer involved shootings(not just our agency but every agency for several hundred miles). Pretty sure he's filed charges a few cops. He doesn't want shitheads and liabilities in our ranks.

This is what several cops on this page feel and have said, repeatedly. The "sheepdog", "cop-o-rators" aren't the ones that are here. Those dudes got run off ,left long ago or remain fairly quite. What remains, to my knowledge our dudes with a very high level of integrity and honor.

Sorry for the soapbox rant. Not directed,8654maine. I wish this was more readily displayed in the media sometimes. Agency's don't want to air their laundry and part of me gets that. The other part of me wants the public to know that law enforcement holds its own accountable.
No sweat. Good to air it out.

Thanks for upholding the standard.
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  #62  
Old 15 July 2017, 22:25
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leopardprey leopardprey is offline
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Originally Posted by Whitebean54 View Post
The shit happens often.... It doesn't fit the narrative to put it out in national news though. This particular case was like page 47 below the fold of the local paper. Then nothing after it.

Good friend of mine is looking at being indicted for killing a guy in a crash. His speed was the predominate factor. I love him like a brother, he's a salt of the earth guy, but he fucked up and a guys dead. He owns it like a man and will accept what punishment is decided for him. It's in the hands of a grand jury, like the above mentioned case was.

A member of this site investigates almost nothing but officer involved shootings(not just our agency but every agency for several hundred miles). Pretty sure he's filed charges a few cops. He doesn't want shitheads and liabilities in our ranks.

This is what several cops on this page feel and have said, repeatedly. The "sheepdog", "cop-o-rators" aren't the ones that are here. Those dudes got run off ,left long ago or remain fairly quite. What remains, to my knowledge our dudes with a very high level of integrity and honor.

Sorry for the soapbox rant. Not directed,8654maine. I wish this was more readily displayed in the media sometimes. Agency's don't want to air their laundry and part of me gets that. The other part of me wants the public to know that law enforcement holds its own accountable.
Thank you.
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  #63  
Old 16 July 2017, 00:40
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Originally Posted by Whitebean54 View Post
Sorry for the soapbox rant. Not directed,8654maine. I wish this was more readily displayed in the media sometimes. Agency's don't want to air their laundry and part of me gets that. The other part of me wants the public to know that law enforcement holds its own accountable.
Here's where I preface my remarks by saying that I know many cops, and I like and trust most of them. In fact, we car pool to my children's school with a family where both parents are LEOs. With that being said, for many years I was paid to put LEO's work under a microscope. Given my own professional experience I cannot agree with the above bold statement. Even the good ones operate with the us versus them mentality, which leads to issues. Now do I think most officers are criminal or corrupt? I guess it depends on how you define the term. Do I think most officers are taking bribes or selling dope? No I don't. Do I think most officers want to do the right thing? Yes I do. However, do I think most officers will take a stand (literally or figuratively) for a career criminal whose a dirtbag and deserves to be locked up, but something was done improperly that would allow the dirtbag to walk? No, I know they won't because my own professional experience tells me that very few will. Yet that's their job, and IMO they should be held to that standard.

The finest homicide detective I ever worked around retired after 25-years and went to work with his BIL selling custom made suits. The dude had integrity, and he was very good at making his cases. He had amazing talent in getting people to talk to him, especially the suspects. I saw his integrity first-hand and up-close as we worked many of the same cases. In fact, I saw him testify on more than one occasion where he stepped up and pissed off more than one ADA because he wouldn't bend the story in certain directions. I think that influenced his new career. At the same time, he crushed more than one of our clients, and I never begrudged him that because he did it right. I made sure to shake his hand the last time we talked and I told him how much I respected his work. I wish more were like him and that I knew where he was now because I'd love to buy him a beer and talk.
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  #64  
Old 16 July 2017, 05:39
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Given my own professional experience I cannot agree with the above bold statement. Even the good ones operate with the us versus them mentality, which leads to issues.
Literally gave you examples of my agency and members of this site handling business and holding other's accountable. We fire guys for lying about dumb shit. Lying under oath, on the stand.... Kick rocks, you're looking for new work.


Let me ask you this, what did you do after you discovered they lied on the stand? File a complaint, tell the judge, speak to their supervisor?
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  #65  
Old 16 July 2017, 09:52
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I applaud when folks are held to the standard and accountability, we shouldn't expect anything else.

No, we did the best job we could and make our own cases. If we did our job right, the judge and the supervisor would know by the end of trial. It didn't require us to file a complaint. The sad thing is we'd face the same officer/detective on many cases thereafter.

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Literally gave you examples of my agency and members of this site handling business and holding other's accountable. We fire guys for lying about dumb shit. Lying under oath, on the stand.... Kick rocks, you're looking for new work.


Let me ask you this, what did you do after you discovered they lied on the stand? File a complaint, tell the judge, speak to their supervisor?
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  #66  
Old 16 July 2017, 13:01
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Let me ask you this, what did you do after you discovered they lied on the stand? File a complaint, tell the judge, speak to their supervisor?
Let me ask you a question, have you ever blown the whistle on a fellow cop or anyone else or an organization? Do you know any rank-and-file guys that have? If yes, how did the force or other cops treat the whistle blower? I have first-hand experience in the area of whistle blowing, and the experience is not fun nor a career enhancer. My case made it in the national and international press. If you doubt my experience, I can share it with a BTDT and they can vet me so you can have confidence that I know what I'm talking about. My decision to blow the whistle was life-changing for me and my family and I wouldn't wish the experience on anyone. So I appreciate it when officers don't want to rock the boat, I truly do. But ultimately, I did it because it was the right thing to do, even when my wife was pleading with me not to do it. IMO, you either have integrity or you don't.
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  #67  
Old 16 July 2017, 15:25
8654maine 8654maine is offline
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Just a reminder: let's keep this professional.

Not that it hasn't deteriorated but the potential is there.

This is an informative thread and the latest discussion is important.

Carry on.
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  #68  
Old 16 July 2017, 19:45
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Let me ask you a question, have you ever blown the whistle on a fellow cop or anyone else or an organization? Do you know any rank-and-file guys that have? If yes, how did the force or other cops treat the whistle blower? I have first-hand experience in the area of whistle blowing, and the experience is not fun nor a career enhancer. My case made it in the national and international press. If you doubt my experience, I can share it with a BTDT and they can vet me so you can have confidence that I know what I'm talking about. My decision to blow the whistle was life-changing for me and my family and I wouldn't wish the experience on anyone. So I appreciate it when officers don't want to rock the boat, I truly do. But ultimately, I did it because it was the right thing to do, even when my wife was pleading with me not to do it. IMO, you either have integrity or you don't.
I have -- multiple times....

I believe the main issue was the way in which your statement appeared to come across as it being a rampant thing when it is not. Nothing personal, but the truth of the matter is that there are a lot of times that LEO's "blow the whistle." If it wasn't true, there would be no reason to have an "IA" section or whatever it is called in multiple agencies. Many of their cases are started by fellow officers making complaints.
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  #69  
Old 17 July 2017, 11:22
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I have -- multiple times....

I believe the main issue was the way in which your statement appeared to come across as it being a rampant thing when it is not. Nothing personal, but the truth of the matter is that there are a lot of times that LEO's "blow the whistle." If it wasn't true, there would be no reason to have an "IA" section or whatever it is called in multiple agencies. Many of their cases are started by fellow officers making complaints.
Cool, glad to see you do the right thing!

Perhaps my POV and experiences are no longer relevant as times have changed and folks change along with the times............

Anyway, I'll defer to your current experience, expertise, and insight.
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  #70  
Old 17 July 2017, 11:45
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Cool, glad to see you do the right thing!

Perhaps my POV and experiences are no longer relevant as times have changed and folks change along with the times............

Anyway, I'll defer to your current experience, expertise, and insight.
No worries! Experience is always a good thing -- regardless of its age -- it's always relevant...or so I think at least.

The problem with LE -- IMO -- is that they don't advertise when they clean their house enough. I believe that every time a LEO is fired, suspended, arrested, etc., it should be made known to the public. That way, the public can see what is being done to keep integrity alive.

I never have an issue with someone questioning LE, I just don't like blanket statements or statements with "most" describing LE when no one truly knows "most" of them.
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  #71  
Old 17 July 2017, 12:57
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Let me ask you a question, have you ever blown the whistle on a fellow cop or anyone else or an organization? Do you know any rank-and-file guys that have? If yes, how did the force or other cops treat the whistle blower? I have first-hand experience in the area of whistle blowing, and the experience is not fun nor a career enhancer.
I haven't had to make paper on anything yet but I have threatened to whip a cops ass, on scene, for being rough with a suspect that had giving up, was compiling and obviously had pre existing mental issues. This was in front of cops from several agencies(pursuit)and a shit ton of the suspects neighbors. The same neighborhood that had been protesting that same agency weeks before. His supervisor handled it from there. No negative blowback. We have had several ambush and attempted ambush shootings in the last year. Most cops in my AO understand we have to work together to not only protect each other but also to change public perception. (2nd and 3rd order effects)

As far as guys I know handling misconduct with cops, I've giving you two examples. A third one exposed some shit that resulted in seismic shifts in our leadership and policy. Demotions,firings, and maybe criminal charges. I don't treat him any differently and no one does either as far as I know.

[/QUOTE] But ultimately, I did it because it was the right thing to do, even when my wife was pleading with me not to do it. IMO, you either have integrity or you don't.[/QUOTE]

When I initially read this, I thought it was a jab at me as did a few others. Good for you for having the stones to do it.
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  #72  
Old 17 July 2017, 12:58
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Cj, when and were you in LE if you don't mind me asking?
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  #73  
Old 17 July 2017, 14:38
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In my long career, I have arrested two sworn LE officers. One for a DUI on duty (called out and was DUI when he showed up) and another who was giving drugs to street chicks for sex.
Distasteful yes......Necessary? Absolutely.
I hate crooks that wear a uniform.
In my opinion very few get through the hiring process, good backgrounds, polys, psyches, etc. But a few do and its those that need to be identified early on and cut
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  #74  
Old 17 July 2017, 16:32
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And I hit a cop's house just last week who was living with a known felon and major drug dealer. We didn't arrest her but there were narcotics seized and an active federal indictment. Wasn't my investigation but the warrant service got turned over to my team to handle. Not fun to conduct a surround and callout with armor the whole time you are looking at a marked police car in the driveway.

I think a big problem with LE misconduct is that a lot of bad actors are allowed to resign in lieu of being terminated and even sometimes arrested. IMO a lot of agency management want as little negative attention as possible since "we" are already under so much scrutiny. They take the easy out and let the bad cop resign. That a lot of times leads to a bad cop getting re-hired at another LE agency because their previous behavior was swept under the rug.
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  #75  
Old 17 July 2017, 17:50
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I think a big problem with LE misconduct is that a lot of bad actors are allowed to resign in lieu of being terminated and even sometimes arrested. IMO a lot of agency management want as little negative attention as possible since "we" are already under so much scrutiny. They take the easy out and let the bad cop resign. That a lot of times leads to a bad cop getting re-hired at another LE agency because their previous behavior was swept under the rug.
The first part of this happens a lot. I've heard first person from both accused and from former IA types of an accused LEO called in for an internal investigation interview and being given two choices:
1) If you resign now, the maximum we can sustain against you is X, which will likely end your law enforcement career.
2) If I compel you to interview, once you answer my questions, I will sustain Y, which will terminate your law enforcement career and result in criminal charges. Here's a pad and pen.


In my neck of the woods a resignation while under investigation is a nearly-always fatal career blow. Every now and then someone will get rehired by a podunk agency, but it's rare.
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  #76  
Old 17 July 2017, 18:19
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We had cops that used to come to an Asian hostess bar and openly drink on duty in uniform with "escorts" sitting in their lap. They would go out on calls and then come back to drink more. I wouldn't believe it if i didn't see it with my own eyes. One day, one of the cops had way too much to drink and ended up slapping the shit out of one of the chicks who worked there before another cop pulled him out. She was pretty shaken up and ran off which caused a bunch of other crazy shit to happen. I stopped dating bar girls shortly after that.....

There was about 6 cops that would frequent the place and this was at a medium size bay area CA agency.
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  #77  
Old 17 July 2017, 18:40
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Cj, when and were you in LE if you don't mind me asking?
No I don't mind you asking, I never was nor ever seriously considered becoming a LEO.
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  #78  
Old 17 July 2017, 20:14
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No I don't mind you asking, I never was nor ever seriously considered becoming a LEO.
Then I am slightly confused, when did you blow the whistle on police misconduct? Was it as part of a prosecution team? Please send via pm. I don't want to derail the thread.
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  #79  
Old 17 July 2017, 22:25
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Then I am slightly confused, when did you blow the whistle on police misconduct? Was it as part of a prosecution team? Please send via pm. I don't want to derail the thread.
No derailing, sent via PM.
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  #80  
Old 17 July 2017, 23:47
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Regarding LE misconduct in general, Reason magazine had this piece up a few years ago about a "police offenders registry," made potent by the feds tightening the strings on the federal money bag. Any thoughts on whether it's time for something like this, or whether this would do any good?
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