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Old 19 June 2017, 09:30
Snipe Snipe is offline
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MK12 MOD1 information request

Guys, I'm trying to get my hands on an electronic copy of the MK12 technical manuals, nothing classified. I have the specs, what I'm looking for in black and white if it is called a precision rifle or special purpose rifle, what is the accuracy requirement for the rifle (if it's a 1 MOA rifle), barrel life, etc. Appreciate any help, this is for a white paper I was asked to write. At this time I can't get my hands on any TM's for this weapon that I can use for reference. If you need more info please PM me. Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 19 June 2017, 19:41
99superduty 99superduty is offline
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The TM says:

MK 12 MOD 1 SPECIAL PURPOSE RIFLE (SPR)

I've got some stuff I can send your way. PM sent.
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  #3  
Old 20 June 2017, 00:46
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This is the only thing I could find.

I'd like to catch a copy of that stuff as well, if you don't mind. I've got four of the Mk12s rifles and I've been looking for the TM for years now off and on, but am never able to find it.
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Old 22 June 2017, 14:07
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I may have something. I'll look at home tonight. I think I still have my courseware stuff from Crane.
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  #5  
Old 23 June 2017, 00:23
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I've got four of the Mk12s rifles and blah blah blah...
You suck
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  #6  
Old 23 June 2017, 00:30
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Hope this helps
https://www.scribd.com/doc/201800572...-spr-maint-pdf
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Old 23 June 2017, 07:16
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You suck
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/5...ad.html&page=1

Step 1: Buy a stripped upper receiver.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by maim View Post
Hope this helps
Thanks. That's the one I've been seeing for a few years now --- but that damn site wants a membership to download.

Alright, apparently if you leave the page idle for a while it will give you a 'sign up for free trial' pop-up. Holy shit what a freaking pain in the ass to cancel.

Anyway, since I'm such an awesome guy (tell all the girls you know), I downloaded the TM and have put it up here for you guys:

TM11416A-IN/1 TM FOR MK12MOD1SPR.pdf

The file will be uploaded for 90 days before it goes bye-bye (automatically).
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Old 23 June 2017, 09:42
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I still don't understand this fascination with a minute of angle as a grouping standard. Anyway, according to Crane the acceptance criteria is 1.75 inch extreme spread 5 shot group at 100 yards (suppressed and unsuppressed) using MK262 ammo.
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Old 23 June 2017, 10:20
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Personally, I consider 1-MOA to be standard for me. For one simple reason:

There are enough quality parts and vendors available on the market today that make achieving a 1-MOA standard almost trivial. Especially with the Mk262/77gr OTM ammo.

Big Army/Navy/USMC might have economy of scale factors figured into their programmatic standards that lead to the 1.75MOA criteria, but I have no true insiders knowledge of this. Just a hunch.
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Old 23 June 2017, 13:44
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Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
Especially with the Mk262/77gr OTM ammo.
Unfortunately for your case and accepted wisdom MK262 isn't MOA ammo. The Navy acceptance criteria is for 300 yards: LOT ACCEPTANCE REQUIREMENT:
AA53: 5.56MM SPECIAL BALL, LONG RANGE MK 262 MOD 1

Five (5) each ten (10) round groups fired through two (2) 5.56mm SCATP Accuracy Test Barrels.
(50 rounds per barrel, 100 rounds total.)
Average ES of all ten (10) groups shall not exceed 3.5 inches.
No individual group shall exceed 4.5 inch ES.

It's also pointless to talk about a MOA rifle, or ammo or shooter or system unless you commit to the number of rounds in the shot group. Even then if you state a minute of angle Extreme Spread for a 5 round group then on average if you fire 5 more rounds into it it'll grow to approximately 1.25 moa.
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Old 23 June 2017, 13:51
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Doesn't Crane do the weapons for NSW only, or do they do all Navy small arms?
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Old 23 June 2017, 14:26
mehalek mehalek is offline
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Originally Posted by B 2/75 View Post
Doesn't Crane do the weapons for NSW only, or do they do all Navy small arms?
They teach the special warfare armorer course their but they provide service Navy wide. My information may be dated.
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Old 23 June 2017, 14:37
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Originally Posted by John Simpson View Post
Unfortunately for your case and accepted wisdom MK262 isn't MOA ammo. The Navy acceptance criteria is for 300 yards: LOT ACCEPTANCE REQUIREMENT:
AA53: 5.56MM SPECIAL BALL, LONG RANGE MK 262 MOD 1

Five (5) each ten (10) round groups fired through two (2) 5.56mm SCATP Accuracy Test Barrels.
(50 rounds per barrel, 100 rounds total.)
Average ES of all ten (10) groups shall not exceed 3.5 inches.
No individual group shall exceed 4.5 inch ES.
Curious, is that just the requirement per spec as a bare minimum---- or how it actually performs? From everything I have read, that ammo was tailor-made for the rifles in the thread topic (more or less), and according to downrange folks, performs exceptionally well. Same for my personal rig as well. Definitely not the 3.5 ES that the spec says is the QA/QC cutoff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Simpson View Post
It's also pointless to talk about a MOA rifle, or ammo or shooter or system unless you commit to the number of rounds in the shot group. Even then if you state a minute of angle Extreme Spread for a 5 round group then on average if you fire 5 more rounds into it it'll grow to approximately 1.25 moa.
Agreed.

Personally, I would consider an MOA rifle as one that, if completely locked down and insulated from recoil influences and fired would yield shot placements with a 1" spread at 100 yards. How many shots should be fired and remain within 1"? 5 shots? 10 shots? I admit I've never really thought about that before, but that's the only way I know how to remove the human variable, and verify/validate the strictly mechanical potential of a rifle system.
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Old 23 June 2017, 14:47
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Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
Personally, I would consider an MOA rifle as one that, if completely locked down and insulated from recoil influences and fired would yield shot placements with a 1" spread at 100 yards. How many shots should be fired and remain within 1"? 5 shots? 10 shots? I admit I've never really thought about that before, but that's the only way I know how to remove the human variable, and verify/validate the strictly mechanical potential of a rifle system.

Good shooters routinely hold sub-MOA groupings, shooting 60-second timed 10-shot strings of rapid fire, which includes a magazine change, in the sitting and prone unsupported positions, at both 200 and 300 yards.

Why the need for a rifle that's locked into a vise? Are you saying that you can't hold hard?
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Old 23 June 2017, 15:03
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DD, for your convenience

Also, the 300 yard NRA Service Rifle target's black bull has the following dimensions:

X ring - 3"
10 ring - 7"
9 ring - 13"
8 ring - 19"

All the records are a score of 200 with 15 or so X's. That's MOA shootin' without the need for a clamp.
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Old 23 June 2017, 15:04
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Originally Posted by B 2/75 View Post
Good shooters routinely hold sub-MOA groupings, shooting 60-second timed 10-shot strings of rapid fire, which includes a magazine change, in the sitting and prone unsupported positions, at both 200 and 300 yards.

Why the need for a rifle that's locked into a vise? Are you saying that you can't hold hard?
Just as a way to scientifically verify and prove the mechanical accuracy of a rifle system in a way that removes the human factor. That way someone can say without any doubt whatsoever that [insert weapon system] is a 1MOA capable platform. So that in the future if/when someone comes along and says "this rifle system is not capable of [insert standard]" there is evidence that it is the shooter, and not the system, that is at fault for not maintaining the standard. Or it could be used to easily verify that a weapon is still within spec........or, conversely, if a used rifle is subsequently performing not to the previously established standard --- without having to take it to a range, wait for ideal weather conditions, and depend on a well seasoned shooter to appropriately utilize the rifle and provide feedback.

I've seen a lot of people who have shot things well within 1 MOA return to the range with the same rifle the next day and say "well, I guess I just wasn't feeling it" to describe their poor results. Just trying to think of a way to remove the human factor that seems to account for a lot of evaluation variability.

Edit: I guess I'm saying I'd like a way to verify a rifle as an MOA-capable rifle, and leave out the MOA-capable shooter component. That way you remove human interaction and verify what a rifle alone is capable of doing on a purely scientific level.

Last edited by DirtyDog0311; 23 June 2017 at 15:22.
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Old 23 June 2017, 15:08
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Holy smokes that's some good shooting.
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  #18  
Old 23 June 2017, 19:06
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Originally Posted by B 2/75 View Post
DD, for your convenience


All the records are a score of 200 with 15 or so X's. That's MOA shootin' without the need for a clamp.
No it isn't! Getting twenty X's out of twenty shots in a three inch circle at 300 yards would be a minute of angle performance for the shooter, rifle and ammo.

It's long past the time that someone should have told you that hitting a MOA target 15 times out of twenty doesn't mean that's meeting a minute of angle standard.

I've attached an image of a search I did of NRA High Power Records of 300 yd prone RF. 19 hits out of twenty fired is still larger than a MOA (but you knew that).
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File Type: jpg NRA 300 RF Records.jpg (45.2 KB, 90 views)
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Last edited by John Simpson; 23 June 2017 at 19:23. Reason: Format trouble
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Old 23 June 2017, 19:42
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Originally Posted by John Simpson View Post
No it isn't! Getting twenty X's out of twenty shots in a three inch circle at 300 yards would be a minute of angle performance for the shooter, rifle and ammo.

It's long past the time that someone should have told you that hitting a MOA target 15 times out of twenty doesn't mean that's meeting a minute of angle standard.
Ah, I think there's been a misunderstanding. When I originally said that 1MOA as a standard, I simply meant for what a quality precision rifle should mechanically able to do, with quality ammo, and without a human's input. I have no idea how many shots though. 5? 10? Cold barrel? Warm barrel? I don't know what that criteria would or should be.
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Old 23 June 2017, 20:11
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Sigh... you're right, of course. A 200 with 19 isn't MOA. It's a hair more.

Pardon my ire, as I'm an old, tired and frustrated vet of the brown gun USAMU service rifle team who went Distinguished in one summer, and who gets cranky when talking about accuracy with guys who use scoped rifles fired from bench rests.


Fuck it, I'm out.
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