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#41
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Wasnt there just as much excitement, argument, hope and discussion about the 6.5 Grendel at one point? That wasnt the magical pew pellet either.
A switch would be pretty good for the gun industry though. Just think of all the new rifles and mags that would have to be made for Gov't contracts, plus the same for the commercial market that would soon follow suit. I mean, why not go ahead and build a 6.8 spc pistol and get ahead of this thing? ![]()
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There are two kinds of people in this world, the smart and lazy, and the stupid and industrious. Be wary of the stupid and industrious, they will fuck something up every time. |
#42
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RIP Stevie D. 1964-2012 U.S. Army Veteran of OIF 2003 "Gone But Never Forgotten" "Let us return to old times and that will be progress." - Verdi |
#43
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I highly doubt 6.8mm SPC is what they're talking about, except as a performance benchmark. The previous generation of this program was called LSAT, and there's tons of online info about it. https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovc...ms/spiegel.pdf https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovc...33_Shipley.pdf My supposition is that they're trying to get/approach 7.62x51 performance within the 5.56 weapon envelope. I'm not sure the shorter 115gn class 6.8 SPC profile bullets are the method to that, but that may not be the supplied material. This is a comprehensively new program, legacy materials don't matter. Shouldn't matter, some old fossil will doubtlessly fuck this up by demanding it be compatible with a stockpile of M14 bolts found in a warehouse in Alabama or some shit. Limiting the design of the cartridge to something that fits in 5.56 STANAG magazines or bolt heads or whatever doesn't matter. Barrel life is directly correlated between powder capacity and bore diameter, all else being equal. Also, heavy bullets cause more wear than light bullets, at the same maximum pressure levels. S/F....Ken M
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"If you remember nothing else about what I’m about to consider here, remember this: the one and only reason politicians, bureaucrats, and policemen want to take your weapons away from you is so that they can do things to you that they couldn’t do if you still had your weapons."— L. Neil Smith “The consolidation of the states into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.” - Robert E. Lee |
#44
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Probably right. I have been out of the LR game for a long time. When I read 6.8 that's just where my brain went due to my history.
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I was born my papa's son When I hit the ground I was on the run I had one glad hand and the other behind You can have yours, just give me mine When the hound dog barkin' in the black of the night Stick my hand in my pocket, everything's all right -ZZ Top |
#45
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I might be wrong, I don''t have any privileged info on this. I like the 6.8SPC, but the time when it would have made sense has passed. Mk 262 and more importantly Mk 318 and M855A1 have made 5.56 into an acceptable caliber from terminal performance standpoint, which was always where M855 was wildly random. This is going to sound crazy, but I'm not even that excited about occasional random flyers with M855A1. It's ball ammo, it still has a 4MOA or more lot acceptance standard. If you need match ammo for SPR/DMR work, issue Mk 262 or Mk 291. Even 12 MOA means you still hit the guy across the room CoM stone center, you need the ammo to frag and make the guy stop doing shit, at least long enough to shoot him in the face. M855 was prone to going icepick, that was the problem.
Anyways, reading up on the USMC long range plan for small arms, it seems the long range concept is a carbine/SAW replacement in 6.5mm 'ish(maybe this 6.8, IDK), duplicating the performance of the 7.62 to 1200m range, while weighing similar to the M249. The M240 (and in some cases the M2) is to be replaced with a 338 Lapua mag type weapon, giving approx 50cal range performance while allowing much more ammo to be carried, as well as actually being moved around without a vehicle or killing yourself. I think this is a good plan, I've basically said as much since OIF2. The 50 caliber is too big for just being a bullet launcher. Even with SLAP it doesn't really kill anything you can't kill with 338 Lapua, and the 40x53HV grenade is just absolutely better for use on people. I really wish they'd make a 30mm gun about the size of the M2, as much as possible, and use the same projectile as the Apache. That could replace the Mk19/47 AND the M2 in direct fire. They tried and failed with the 25mm OCSW thing that blew itself up, but they went stupid fancy and too small. They always go too fancy and field nothing, probably because they have nothing at risk. When a project like this fails, if you took 5% of the staff out at random and hanged them, you wouldn't have projects that failed anymore. S/F....Ken M
__________________
"If you remember nothing else about what I’m about to consider here, remember this: the one and only reason politicians, bureaucrats, and policemen want to take your weapons away from you is so that they can do things to you that they couldn’t do if you still had your weapons."— L. Neil Smith “The consolidation of the states into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.” - Robert E. Lee |
#46
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I read a post on another forum from a guy that proclaims that he is involved in this process. His comments are summarized to say that the 6.8 projectile is the intended payload, but the 6.8 SPC II as we own and shoot it may very well not be the delivery system. The 6.8 projectile is nothing more than a .270. So here are my concerns.
As usual, we are planning to to fight the last war, again. Yes, we will likely all die seeing Americans still killing Arabs or Persians, requiring a longer one shot kill capability. Next, we should be starting with the requirement from the Program Objectives Memorandum (POM) and build down from there to a weapon or ammunition that is needed to fulfill that requirement. Otherwise, its just another useless GlockTalk "Which is better" caliber discussion where people post to justify and seek relevance about their purchases and really no other knowledge, experience or requirement. There has to be an objective or standard to which to develop.
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No one will take better care of us, than us: Suicide Hotline: 1-800-273-8255 |
#47
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http://www.ndia.org/-/media/sites/nd..._v4.ashx?la=en
Some more information about 6.8 future weapon. After reading about this stuff, as well as the 338 caliber medium machine gun replacement program, I think the US .mil procurement is completely devoid of anyone who actually shoots stuff for enjoyment or seeking to better themselves. There's nothing magical about the 6.8mm bullet diameter, in fact bullet selection kinda sucks. The 6.8 SPC was developed to fit within the M16 weapons platform, if you're ditching that, the rational for retaining 6.8mm bullets goes away. I'm getting a definite cargo cult/magical thinking vibe from the .mil; as well as a lack of interest in actually fielding anything, possibly to draw out the lucrative R&D process for as long as humanly possible while avoiding making any of those hazardous "decision things," for which you might possibly be held accountable. S/F....Ken M
__________________
"If you remember nothing else about what I’m about to consider here, remember this: the one and only reason politicians, bureaucrats, and policemen want to take your weapons away from you is so that they can do things to you that they couldn’t do if you still had your weapons."— L. Neil Smith “The consolidation of the states into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.” - Robert E. Lee |
#48
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DoD: "Counterterrorism is over! Great Power Competition has returned! Also DoD: "What we REALLY need is a suite of small arms that does not use the same ammunition as our Allies despite this being a 'thing' the last time Great Power Competition was the order of the day." Meanwhile, we all know that this is a technical solution (bigger bullet) to a training problem (Joe can't hit his target) just like three round burst was. -Stan
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-Stanley_White "An increasingly lonely man, Patton felt that his was the voice of truth in a wilderness of indifference." -Carlo D'Este "Two letters and two well placed rounds is the only difference between victim or victor." -Mingo Kane "Life is forced upon the living without their prior consultation." -Me "I know it upsets you, but the purpose of the game is to perpetuate the game." -Me |
#49
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What allies? Oh, you mean the leeches
![]() Given that we finally took reasonable measures to address the M855 problems, IMO the need to replace 5.56 has passed. Refine the training and user ergo items like sights. The general issue of compact thermal weapons sights is the next "big thing" , even more significant than general issue of night vision or conventional optical sights IMO . The utility of a 338'ish MMG replacing both 7.62 and 50caliber MG's, and, more importantly, hanging one on every single tactical vehicle in the fleet has merit. The 50 caliber doesn't really do anything that you can't go with a 338, any real AFV needs a real autocannon to deal with, to the point that even 25mm is becoming inadequate. Still waiting on 40mm ammunition that doesn't suck ass, both LV, and to a lesser extent Mk19 HV stuff also. This fascination with long range engagement by general infantry units is prima facie evidence that our doctrine for supporting arms either sucks, or IMO, is being/has been ignored. S/F...Ken M
__________________
"If you remember nothing else about what I’m about to consider here, remember this: the one and only reason politicians, bureaucrats, and policemen want to take your weapons away from you is so that they can do things to you that they couldn’t do if you still had your weapons."— L. Neil Smith “The consolidation of the states into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.” - Robert E. Lee |
#50
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As I've written before...if you are slugging it with the enemy at carbine/rifle range, your plan sucks.
But, like all things with the US military, the "next great shiny thing" is always the best idea ever, and it will fix all the problems caused by the "last dumbass idea." Bullets, PT tests, recruiting strategies, armored vehicles, dress uniforms, whatever. Always the same.
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Life’s barely long enough to get good at one thing. So be careful what you get good at. |
#51
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#getoffthelawn
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No one will take better care of us, than us: Suicide Hotline: 1-800-273-8255 |
#52
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6.8 does great with shorter barrels as well.
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It's like I'm playing cards with my brother's kids.. |
#53
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Reminds me of a gig I did in UAE a few years ago. Training Emirates on the use of the DSR-1 sniper rifle. Expensive, highly accurate sniper system that they had bought hundreds of with zero idea of how to use. They were already researching upgrading to a newer rifle and didn't even have the basic understanding of the systems they had.
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#54
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This is a macroscopic mirror to the "rifle ranger" who wears multi-cam, 5.11 tactical pants, & the M4gery with an ICOG and the latest railed foregrip and has targets that looks like buckshot at the 25 yard line. It's great foraging ideas for the ETOTAWKI. |
#55
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__________________
"The most HSLD stuff ever taught was the basics. So-called 'advanced training' is often no more than the very fluid and expert application of those basic skills." - SOTB |
#56
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#57
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![]() Or instead of owning multiple black rifles or multiple glocks, spend more on training and ammo. (Well unless you are so financially well off you can do both ![]() I always tell students that with whatever firearm they purchase, the same cost for the firearm should go into training/ammo. So figure that into their budget. Buy a $1000 AR, spend $1000 on ammo and good, effective training.
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#58
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And they have no clue how to use a cleaning kit. ![]() GPC's tips for new AR or any other gun owners 1) Cleaning kit 2) Decent Irons if not equipped 3) Mags and training ammo 4) A basic GI web sling to get started. Money spent on a $100 sling can go to ammo. That's why I like Colts, they come with a cleaning kit and basic sling out of the box.
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Steel Rain Brings The Pain! |
#59
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Starting to see delivered prototypes, this is the SAW/GPMG type weapon. As I said, it's a 6.8mm bullet, with a proprietary casing. IOW, this is an experiment like SPIW, like OCSW/OICW, like so many before it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPhUsS-DEx4 The pessimist in me says it's all bullshit, being used as an excuse for the spending of taxpayer funds on green welfare R&D. This has been repeated over and over again. Like I said, you setup a program with real requirements, you have ONE (1) guy in charge, by name, by law if possible, and then if it's fucked up, at the very least you put that guy in prison. Ideally, you hang that SOB live on the emergency broadcast system on every channel, and put 10% of the "executives" in prison, and confiscate all their worldly goods. We spend more money on "defense" than all other nations combined, and what do we have to show for it? Armored box trucks and guns/bullets that some dude at Camp Perry designed 15yrs ago in his basement or garage. It's like going to car dealership and they straight faced ask for Bentley money for a Hyundai Sonata with some RICE on it. And the "system" lets the crackhead parts fetcher employee you sent return brake drum cores sign away your entire business for it. S/F....Ken M
__________________
"If you remember nothing else about what I’m about to consider here, remember this: the one and only reason politicians, bureaucrats, and policemen want to take your weapons away from you is so that they can do things to you that they couldn’t do if you still had your weapons."— L. Neil Smith “The consolidation of the states into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.” - Robert E. Lee |
#60
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Well, at least that suppressor, that is going to cause major heat problems, is going to keep the carcinogens out of Joe's face. Blah, blah, blah. But hey, the stock folds.
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