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  #41  
Old 11 December 2003, 13:33
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  #42  
Old 11 December 2003, 13:34
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Quote:
Originally posted by RangerCharlie
I ran that thru my stereo speakers and that was awesome!

I think I saw that getting worked on while I was in FLA a fews years back. I'm trying to remember the plane shop.. They had a 190 that was taken apart and guys refabbing parts for it.
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  #43  
Old 11 December 2003, 15:09
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I've read a lot of negative reviews of the HS 129, that it was unreliable and underpowered, and that it really wasn't very durable as a ground attack aircraft. Always found that strange given the Luftwaffe's huge role in CAS, that they used less than ideal and some truly obsolete planes, but it makes sense since the force was in many ways rushed into war before proper force maturation.
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  #44  
Old 11 December 2003, 15:26
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The HS 129 was a good ground attack aircraft but the Gnome (French) engines it used were unreliable. Very keen to dust problems.

But loaded with 4 20mm and the Pak 50 or 75 it could and did do some damage. I think some of them even had 4 30mm in the nose. It was armor plated but needed fighter cover to protect it.

Much better than the Ju-87 with dual 37's...
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  #45  
Old 11 December 2003, 15:31
Doctor_Doom Doctor_Doom is offline
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french Gnome-Rhone engines you say... hmmm...

Yeah, from what understand the Stuka's with the 37mm PaK's were very difficult to fly and to score kills with, probably ought to read up more on the Hs 129.
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  #46  
Old 11 December 2003, 15:33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doctor_Doom
I've read a lot of negative reviews of the HS 129, that it was unreliable and underpowered, and that it really wasn't very durable as a ground attack aircraft. Always found that strange given the Luftwaffe's huge role in CAS, that they used less than ideal and some truly obsolete planes, but it makes sense since the force was in many ways rushed into war before proper force maturation.

I believe, (I'm probably wrong about this) that it was used as a harassment aircraft and not so much as a tactical aircraft.

Really the only consistant ground attack aircraft was the Stuka. By no means the best, but probably the most used.

As far as CAS goes, I believe that is why The German high command was so set on all bombers having dive bombing capability. Even the Me 262 was redesigned for light bombing.
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  #47  
Old 11 December 2003, 15:34
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I'm pretty sure on the engines.

Even though Rudell made all his kills on the Stuka, I think they would have been better off with a BMW powered 129.

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  #48  
Old 11 December 2003, 15:35
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Quote:
Originally posted by RangerCharlie
The HS 129 was a good ground attack aircraft but the Gnome (French) engines it used were unreliable. Very keen to dust problems.

I believe you have this backwards. The German engines were unreliable and the French engines were a better replacement. I'll check but I think that is the case.

O.k., I checked it out, the original engines were very weak and unreliable, the captured French Gnome engines were a better replacement, but it was still sluggish and underpowered. Never the less, it was a formitable ground attack aircraft and acculated many kills. They also suffered many loses.
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Last edited by Matchanu; 11 December 2003 at 15:48.
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  #49  
Old 11 December 2003, 15:45
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See, the front of the cockpit was armored


Here's onwith the Pak 75 in it. Wold have been a beast to fly. Only 15 rounds I think.

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  #50  
Old 11 December 2003, 15:47
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Quote:
Originally posted by RangerCharlie
[B]I'm pretty sure on the engines.

Even though Rudell made all his kills on the Stuka, I think they would have been better off with a BMW powered 129.
Not questioning your info sir, I had just forgotten about the power plant for the 129, and the fact they were french... frog bastards...

My understanding was that the Hs 129 had poor flight characteristics and a poor field of vision, which was why it was relegated to receive the Gnome-Rhone engines. It was rushed into battle on the Eastern Front for lack of a better aircraft to fulfill the Schlactflugzeug requirement. Hence I'm not sure I would agree entirely with your second statement; however I would fully concur that Rudel was a Stuka prodigy, can't expect all Stuka pilots to perform like he did.

Matchanu, I'm fairly certain that the 129 was intended as a tactical weapon and as a tank killer, but was reduced to harrassment because of its poor performance.

In many ways Udet was responsible for the dive bomber requirment, truly foolish decisions from an underqualified man.

Hitler was the one who pushed for the Me 262 to be a Jagdbomber, based on the experience and success of the FW 190F, and validated, I think, by the CAS performance of Allied fighter-bombers. The reason it was a poor decision on the German's part was because they needed bomber interception, and not ground attack capabilities in the defense of the Reich. In any case, ground attack is a job that the high speed Me 262 was just not suited for.

Quote:
I believe you have this backwards. The German engines were unreliable and the French engines were a better replacement. I'll check but I think that is the case.
My sources say the same, that the Gnome-Rhone engines were better than the German engines but that they were still unreliable and the aircraft was still underpowered.
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  #51  
Old 11 December 2003, 15:53
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Agreed.

O.k., trivia time. What were the name and unique nature of the upward firing rockets fitted on the Me 163?
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  #52  
Old 11 December 2003, 15:57
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The A version did have German engines, but the B had the Gnomes.

Check out that pic of the pilot, he looks happy eh?

The sight was placed outside the windscreen!

But I like the plane and the idea.

I'm not a post 1942 Stuka fan. I guess use what you got
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  #53  
Old 11 December 2003, 15:58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matchanu
Agreed.

O.k., trivia time. What were the name and unique nature of the upward firing rockets fitted on the Me 163?
Can't think that the 163 had rockets. Just 30mm cannon. Where did they fit them?
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  #54  
Old 11 December 2003, 15:59
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Quote:
Originally posted by RangerCharlie
The A version did have German engines, but the B had the Gnomes.

Check out that pic of the pilot, he looks happy eh?

The sight was placed outside the windscreen!

A sudden stop will hurt.

I like the sirens on the Stukas, what a concept.
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  #55  
Old 11 December 2003, 16:01
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Quote:
Originally posted by RangerCharlie
Can't think that the 163 had rockets. Just 30mm cannon. Where did they fit them?
In the wing roots, they fired almost straight upward. Like the "Shraz Muzik" 20mm cannons on the night fighters.

It was revolutionary for it's time, but downed only a few bombers.
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  #56  
Old 11 December 2003, 16:14
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I heard the 163 killed more of it's pilots than enemy fire did.
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  #57  
Old 11 December 2003, 16:18
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Quote:
Originally posted by RangerCharlie
I heard the 163 killed more of it's pilots than enemy fire did.
Yes and no, I Gruppe of JG 400 was the only unit to obtain full ooperational status. They accounted for 9 kills with a loss of 14 of it's own. Several of those following heavy landings which caused the residual fuel to ignite. Not all pilots were killed from this.

Do you give up on the question yet?
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  #58  
Old 11 December 2003, 16:23
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I thought there was no confirmed record of a single kill by a Komet? I do now that many blew up because of the hyper combustible fuel mixture of T-Stoff and Z-Stoff, and that in the unpowered glide they were sitting ducks.

I don't know the name of the wingroot rockets. The 262 also had rockets mounted at one time and I believe the He 111 was tested with a 50mm field mortar to attack bomber formations? Can anyone confirm?

I can't imagine the Schraegemusik system, flying under a bomber through defenses, to down an enemy aircraft... talk about piloting skills and guts.

Last edited by Doctor_Doom; 11 December 2003 at 16:31.
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  #59  
Old 11 December 2003, 16:28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doctor_Doom
I thought there was no confirmed record of a single kill by a Komet? I do now that many blew up because of the hyper combustible fuel mixture of T-Stoff and Z-Stoff, and that in the unpowered glide they were sitting ducks.

I don't know the name of the wingroot rockets. The 262 also had rockets mounted at one time and I believe the He 111 was tested with a 50mm field mortar to attacke bomber formations? Can anyone confirm?

I can't imagine the Schraegemusik system, flying under a bomber throught defenses, to down an enemy aircraft... talk about piloting skills and guts.
Schragegemusik system was only used in night fighter aircraft. The Brittish bombers had no defences underneth their bombers. So it worked very well. The trick was not to shoot the bomb bay.

Not many blew up from the fuel mixture, but enough did to make it very dangerous.

Experienced pilots knew to fly the Komet straight up through the bombers and do 2 sweeping attacks, and power dive to the hard deck quickly.

You are right about the mortors, they didn't work very well and made the aircraft very hard to fly.

Give up yet?

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  #60  
Old 11 December 2003, 16:32
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I give up, I'm so pissed off today I can't even spell any more.
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