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  #1  
Old 7 November 2012, 17:24
Bearclaw Bearclaw is offline
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ASIS 2 Day EP Seminar - RFI

I was contemplating attending an upcoming ASIS 2 day EP seminar. I realize that two days isn't going to be a comprehensive training course, but am wondering if anyone has attended and if so, whether it was worth the time? I'm specifically wondering if there is any practical app re: choreography of movements, etc., or is this all classroom discussion and case studies?

Thanks!
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Old 7 November 2012, 17:44
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Designed and taught by Oatman...

very high level overview of what an EP program should look like.. but no hands on application or skills taught..

Good networking opportunity.. and not a bad program for corporate security managers to attend if they have an EP element within their program or are looking to add one..

Not nearly enough information for someone looking to actually do EP for a living..

If you are going to be involved with EP, have an EP team working for you, etc.. its not bad to consider..

If you are trying to actually do EP.. go to the extended Oatman course.. or one of the "big" name recognizeable schools... youll do more networking, and add a cert to your resume that companies will be more interested in..
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Old 7 November 2012, 17:53
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Great, I'm looking at it from a managerial level so it sounds like it might be a good fit. I appreciate the feedback.
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Old 7 November 2012, 18:16
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ASIS courses -- IMO -- don't teach anything. They expose attendees to new products and ideas. Courses are generally marketing presentations, disguised as training.

I agree with mdwest that management types can gain some useful info from ASIS seminars....
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Old 8 November 2012, 20:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearclaw View Post
I was contemplating attending an upcoming ASIS 2 day EP seminar. I realize that two days isn't going to be a comprehensive training course, but am wondering if anyone has attended and if so, whether it was worth the time? I'm specifically wondering if there is any practical app re: choreography of movements, etc., or is this all classroom discussion and case studies?

Thanks!
All classroom. If you read all three of Oatman's books then you basically get the course outline. The course doesnt cover every chapter, but you get the jist of it.

Otherwise mdwest and SOTB are spot on.
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Old 8 November 2012, 21:54
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I long ago found ASIS to be more of a marketing outfit and a resume builder than anything else. I went to several courses, read all Oatman's stuff and even went to one of his semis. But after a while I almost felt a sort of "ring knocker" attitude, almost like getting the little acronym after the name was more important that the actual work. Just a long faded observation. But they DID throw a helluva BBQ after a semi in Bloomington, IN back in the day at the State Farm HQ!
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Old 11 November 2012, 12:07
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But after a while I almost felt a sort of "ring knocker" attitude, almost like getting the little acronym after the name was more important that the actual work.
There is some truth to that..

ASIS certifications serve as a hiring discriminator for several companies..

it is no guarantee that you are going to be a good employee, or have the capacity to do good work.. etc..

but like a degree, or other "professional" certifications (PMP, CPA, etc..etc..).. it does tell the employer that you have enough industry knowledge (or did at one time) to pass a test and meet a certain standard...

I would maintain that the "standard" is actually pretty low in the case of most ASIS certs.. but it is still known benchmark that someone can be graded against...

It also gains admission to a network/club (ringknocker analogy works here)...

I have gained access to dozens of C-suite executives, senior directors, VP's, etc.. within the industry.. for no other reason than my active involvement in ASIS as a council member (something that I could not have done without picking up the CPP first...)..
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Old 11 November 2012, 12:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdwest

ASIS certifications serve as a hiring discriminator for several companies..

but like a degree, or other "professional" certifications (PMP, CPA, etc..etc..).. it does tell the employer that you have enough industry knowledge (or did at one time) to pass a test and meet a certain standard...
Does the CPI (Professional Certified Investigator) certification from ASIS rate at all? I do not remember coming across it as a hiring requirement as much, comparing to CPP or PSP; is it because the cert does not bring much value to the table?
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Old 11 November 2012, 18:40
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Does the CPI (Professional Certified Investigator) certification from ASIS rate at all? I do not remember coming across it as a hiring requirement as much, comparing to CPP or PSP; is it because the cert does not bring much value to the table?
If I was going to obtain an ASIS cert, I'd go big or go home. Get a CPP. It encompasses investigations to a degree, but it's worth and recognition in the marketplace trumps a "subset" certification every day of the week.

As to the OP and Oatman, bear in mind that Oatman's goal in teaching the two day is to sell seats in the 7 day program, and to sell his expertise as a consultant. That said, the principles covered within are excellent for an overview of the corporate executive protection realm, and a great deal of individual protective measures can be gleaned from it, for a travelling executive.
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Old 12 November 2012, 11:14
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GWAG,

I agree with BelieverAZ.. the CPP carries far more weight than the PSP, CPI, etc.. and incorporates physical security (PSP) and investigations (CPI) material in the test..

Not saying the other certs dont bring value.. for example, Ill probably pick up a PSP this year.. mostly because someone else is paying for it, and Ive already held a CPP for a fairly long time.. (I dont really have an excuse not to do it..)...

But if I currently held no ASIS certification.. and was paying for training, course materials, test etc.. out of my own pocket... I would absolutely go for the CPP first.. much more bang for the buck there..

I would also get involved in the National Capital Region ASIS Chapter (Chapter 011).. several influential senior security managers and directors belong to that chapter.. as do a couple of very senior members of the ASIS leadership team (executives, volunteer leaders, etc..).. since the ASIS HQ is in NOVA.. The networking that can be accomplished in NOVA is WELL WORTH the price of admission... not to mention the Chapter has a decent mentoring program where new members trying to obtain their CPP get attached to senior members that help them put together study plans, etc.. (easy way to get close to and network with a senior security manager that likely works for a large DC based contracting firm)....
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Old 12 November 2012, 11:40
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BelieverAZ, Midwest - thank you both, this is very helpful.
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  #12  
Old 12 November 2012, 16:19
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Originally Posted by GirlwithaGlock View Post
Does the CPI (Professional Certified Investigator) certification from ASIS rate at all? I do not remember coming across it as a hiring requirement as much, comparing to CPP or PSP; is it because the cert does not bring much value to the table?
No. IMO the PCI brings no value and can hurt more then help since if you have to get a PCI cert to buff up a resume then its likely you don't have the right experience. I've hired dozens of investigators over the years and none held the PCI or any type of investigative certification. I'm far more interested in their abilities and experiences which I assess during the interview and background.
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Old 12 November 2012, 17:37
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CJ - thanks, this makes good sense. So, PCI is similar to CAPM in Project Management context, i.e., candidate does not enough experience but wants to show some certs on the resume. Got it!
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Old 12 November 2012, 17:42
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This is an informative thread, I really appreciate the info.Thanks BelieverAZ, MDWest and SOTB.

Stuff like this is why Socnet is so awesome. I just wish there were more of these threads and less crap where people spew unsubstantiated BS about stuff they 'heard' from a guy.
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Old 12 November 2012, 23:03
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I would also get involved in the National Capital Region ASIS Chapter (Chapter 011.)
Do you have to be a current member, "student," or currently hold any certifications from ASIS in order to be involved in a local chapter. The verbiage on the "Chapters" page states that chapters are a good way to link members up. I was wondering if non-members could join a chapter if gaining full membership or taking a certification course are not currently in the cards at this point in my life.

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Old 13 November 2012, 12:29
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You have to be a member of the organization to be involved in the chapter.. no requirement to hold a certification though (the vast majority of ASIS members do not hold the CPP or other certs)..

Most of the chapters are pretty good about inviting you to attend a meeting or two, letting you see what they do, make a decision about whether or not its something you want to get involved in, etc.. before anyone starts asking you about what your member number is..

I would recommend reaching out to the NOVA/National Capitol chapter direct and just asking them if they mind if you attend their next meeting.. let them know you are interested in the organization and want to meet a few people and get a little more information...

If you decide to join.. its $150 a year (not that much).. if youre in the national capital area, you get access to not just the chapter.. but also have pretty access to the organization HQ.. lots of resources there.. If youre new to the industry, there are other sub organizations within ASIS that might be of interest, that cost no additional money.. the Young Professionals group is very active, offer a lot of training opportunities, no cost webinars, etc.. there is also a organization wide mentoring program that is being stood up where you get paired with a senior security manager that helps to guide you through management issues, introduce you to people that can help you with work related processes, etc..

and.. as I have said in other ASIS threads.. I have never failed to get back every penny I have put into the organization, every year.. and then some..

I have picked up jobs, contracts, consulting opportunities, etc.. every year.. for the past decade or longer.. as a result of my affiliation... (youll get out of it, what you put into it)...

not too bad for a $150 investment..
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Old 13 November 2012, 12:30
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Originally Posted by GirlwithaGlock View Post
CJ - thanks, this makes good sense. So, PCI is similar to CAPM in Project Management context, i.e., candidate does not enough experience but wants to show some certs on the resume. Got it!
My only caveat is if the position is for a very specific industry. For example, I use to run the investigation unit for a national HMO and when I had a position open I instructed HR to prioritize for interview purposes those candidates with the Accredited Health Care Fraud Investigator (AHFI) cert from NHCAA. This cert is very specific in the healthcare fraud area and has relatively tight requirements in order to qualify. Also a fair number of folks in the investigation career field also shoot for the Certified Fraud Examiner (CFE) from the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners (ACFE). A number of the Fed Agencies encourage their people to pursue this cert. The ACFE in my view is the premier professional association for those interested in pursuing a career in this area, not for the cert, but for the networking opportunities which spans both public and private sectors across all industries. The ACFE has chapters all over the world and anyone with an interest can attend their events which often include monthly CE dinner meetings. Hope that helps.
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Old 13 November 2012, 12:40
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Agree with everything CJ has said about ACFE.. this in my opinion is the front runner organization for people in the fraud investigations industry (much of what corporate investigations is all about)..

PCI is more geared toward "private investigations"
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Old 13 November 2012, 13:16
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Originally Posted by bmbsqd View Post
I long ago found ASIS to be more of a marketing outfit and a resume builder than anything else.
How so?
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Old 13 November 2012, 21:07
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Your Post
Thanks mdwest. I really appreciate the response.
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