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  #21  
Old 10 November 1999, 07:07
Ranger1 Ranger1 is offline
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm told by NG recruiters in ME, NH,VT and RI that you can't join SF (even NG) as an O until you're a 1st Lt.

In the NG, (when coming off the street) this means OCS then OBC (preferably Infantry or Artillery Branch) then two years with a leg unit before you're eligble to attend SFAS / SFOQC.

NG SF guys out there, please correct me if I'm wrong. Doesn't sound right to me that someone with a degree can walk in off the street, spend a year and a half on AD getting schooled and qualified, and becone a tabbed and branched XO of a NG A-Team.

-Kirk
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  #22  
Old 10 November 1999, 10:42
Mike
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Plus the financial hardships of going to school for up to two years. And for some reasons, the Army doesn't give TDY money or some credits for going to school if you're in the NG unlike the Regular Army.
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  #23  
Old 12 November 1999, 17:56
cecil18
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Kirk,
I have seen O-1's in the Q-course when I went through fresh out of college/ROTC, they may have been O-1 promotable on garduation. A very good friend of mine was/still is an SF baby(no insult intended, they have never been any where else, born and raised SF)and has been an excellent O, he listens to his NCO's for input makes sound decisions, he is now an O-3 soon to be in the window for O-4. It is a fifty/fifty role of the dice as for the proficiency of a young O who is soley an SF baby, but when they are they are easily molded to fit the team (if the team is good). I think alot of it depends on the states themselves. There are ways to get around little bumps in the road. Are you looking to enter as an O-1 into SF? Hope I have been of some assistance.
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  #24  
Old 16 November 1999, 04:20
Ranger1 Ranger1 is offline
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Cecil,

I am considering re-enlisting SFNG (I'm ex-3/75th) in the very near future, and have more than enough college credits to qualify for OCS attendance. I see by your profile that you're with the 20th, so maybe you can tell me (or reliably find out). It is interesting that you say it is possible to be with an SFNG Group as an SF qualified O-1, as this goes against everything I've been told. I have other questions you (or others) may be able to help with.

1. I've been told that if I enlist into the SFNG as an NCO and later attend OCS that I will have to do the entire SFQC (or rather the SFOQC) over again. (Is this true?)Looking at the course structure, there are many identical areas in the SFQC and SFOQC.
While I wouldn't be adverse to doing this, (as I'm sure the specific MOS training for 18A is quite valuable, challenging, and uniquely structued) it seems a waste of your parent unit's time and DOD funds to repeat even the identical portions of the course.

2. It would be more sensible(time efficient for the parent NG SF Group as well as cost efficient for the DOD) to conduct an abbreviated course for SF NCO's who, after having valuable enlisted team time, opted to try for their commission. Does such an abbreveiated course exist? (Like say, specific 18A training and then making the new O's do Robin Sage again as an 18A?).

3. If it is true that an SF NCO would have to repeat SFQC (as an 18A at SFOQC) would you suggest that I attempt to re-enlist as an O-1, and skip enlisted team time? When I was with the 75th, I (as did most others) always had a bit more time for officers who had been prior service enlisted 75th, went to OCS or the Point and returned after Germany / Korea.

My current outlook is that I would value taking 3-4 years as an SFNG NCO before attending SFOQC. What would you suggest? Is there a third option I'm not considering? In the end I, of course, will be making the choice, but your input as a member of the 20th is appreciated.

If anyone else has some helpful insights, please feel free to chip in.

Thanks for your time.

-Kirk
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  #25  
Old 16 November 1999, 20:03
RKW
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Cecil,
Are you Enlisted or an O in the NGSF? How much time did you take off from college to go the Q course? Did you attend other courses? What rank were you able to enter at?
Also, I read a while ago that NGSF are more like the old SF. Does this mean structure or what?
Thanks to Cecil or anyone who can help
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  #26  
Old 17 November 1999, 01:22
cecil18
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Kirk,

I will try to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge, any thing I am in the gray on I will find out and let you know.

Q1: Yes, that is true for Q1. If you are an 18-B,-C,-D,-E,-F,-Z and get a commision you have to go through the whole SFQC. Yes there may be some redundancy when going through, but officers are trained and observed in a different light in phase I & III of SFQC due to their previous training(planning exposure). Overall though officers in the SFQC are only exposed to a small amount of the different MOS's. For instance, where an 18C(engineer) gets aprox. 3 weeks on calc. and place including a week at the ranges, an O will get maybe 3-4 days including range time.My understanding is that they are trianed/drilled on planning and ALOT of it. If any thing, the review of familiar material may provide others with a good source of guidance and assistance.

Q2: No such beast in the Active or NG SF.

Q3: Now that is a difficult question. I personally have more respect for a mustang/maverick barring they are not a shit bag as an NCO and become an even greater burden with a commision.
I will say this, my best experience was in SFQC where I had the privledge to be on a team with a prior service SSG/E-6 out Ranger Battalion (who by the way received a commision). Need I say he was extremely squared away! In that case his prior enlisted experience only enhanced his leadership as an Officer. Who's to say that your experience in Battalion as enlisted won't do the same. *read on!

Now grasshopper I think you may have over looked one option. The 180-A, SF Warrent Officer, the best of both worlds! to become one you must be 1.)SF qualified 2.) have I do believe 4-6 years team time, 3.)min. 2 MOS's- you primary and usually SF ANOC/O&I (usually by then you are at E-7). Put together a packet and submit it. Then hope that all of your hard work will pay off. If selected you go off to Warrent Officer School (FT. Benning) and 180-A at (Ft. Bragg). Now I do belive they do not go back through SFQC as I previously mentioned, but I will verify that and fire you off an e-mail to confirm. From what I have seen and heard from our Warrents it is the best way to go. Mainly because you do not ever have to leave the teams until the time you are incontinent and cannot funciton due to old age. While an officer will be forced out due promotion/accesion (O's are on a team for a short time on AD, while the NG is 2-4 yrs). Keep in mind too that as an O you life in SF is short lived due to a very steep pyramid structure for rank (reach the pinacle fast if good, gone if not, due to lack of billets).

Kirk,sorry for the long wind reply, hope I have been helpful in your choice of a gratifing part time job. let me know if I can be of any assitance in the future.

-Cecil
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  #27  
Old 17 November 1999, 01:34
cecil18
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RKW,
To answer your questions, I am enlisted and did take time off from college to attend the Q-course. Total time was one year for SFQC and language school. I came the unit as an E-3 promotable and went to SFAS as an E-4.

As for NG SF like "old SF", I think that may be due to the Vetrans from Vietnam who still serve. There are still a good many of them out there and they bring a wealth of knowledge and experience with them for those who listen. Things are changing as anything will with time.

Take a look back up this listing because I answered on of your postings earlier. Did you see it?

-Cecil
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  #28  
Old 17 November 1999, 02:31
RKW
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Sorry, that was a couple of weeks ago. Either I did miss it altogether or forgot. My bad. But thanks for the info. Maybe you can help me with another question. While I was scrolling to find your earlier post, I saw Hillbilly's and it said NG Special Forces is about preparation for SFAS. So are there a lot or some of guys who aren't tabbed and haven't gone through SFAS or SFQC?
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  #29  
Old 17 November 1999, 13:10
cecil18
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RKW,

SFAS is the acronym for Special Forces Assesment and Selection. The personnel who are preparing for this 21 day period are untabbed and kept in a group/section called NQP's (Non-Qualified Personnel). They are awaiting an opportunity to attend the assesment, the major factor that determines their attendance is their state of PHYSICAL FITNESS. The once a month period we have together as a unit for these pesonnel is spent assesing their ability, if they show they have prepared to our standards (which are a little higher than required, -enusres passing) they are sent to Ft. Bragg for the selection process.

Once they have completed and BEEN SELECTED (they can complete and be a non-select) do they then proceed on to the SFQC (Special Forces Qualification Course) at a later date. Usually our unit prefers to send someone to SFAS first before Airborne school and PLDC (Priamry Leadership Development Course: initail troop leading, very basic). This saves money in the long run if the persons decides after a acouple attempts that this is not his cup of soup.

I hope this is helpful to you. If you have any more questions post them and I ll try to answer them.

-Cecil
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  #30  
Old 18 November 1999, 07:02
Ranger1 Ranger1 is offline
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Cecil,

Thank you for the reply. I was aware of the WO path, but was unaware that their retention in group was for a longer duration. Thanks for the heads up.Very motivating.When I was in the reserves before I enlisted active into the 75th, the WO course was at Ft. Rucker (I attended Air Assault next door to them in 1987).When did they move to Benning? Or am I off track here?

Reading your post on SFAS, what, in your experience, causes people to pass SFAS but not be selected?

Thanks again,
-Kirk
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  #31  
Old 19 November 1999, 00:13
cecil18
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Kirk,

Good catch, I was wrong on the WOC location. You are right on track, it is still in Ft. Rutgers.

You mentioned that you went to Air Assualt in '87, will you make the age cut off for OCS? (not to be nosey, just dated yourself)

The non-select SFAS canidate can be attributed to a few things, usually a combination of things or maybe just one inparticular. For example, from my own personal experience, a weak rucking ability. I met standards plus some, but fell short of the UNKNOWN standard for SFAS. I ended up coming back for a second serving, mmmm good. I have seen things like poor leadership in team week, poor attitude (confrontational, foul language), weak in obstacle course (that is a make or break if on border line). There are the few who make all the gates (weed out points), but still don't stand out like the majority and are non-select and invited back to see how bad they want it. Gut check!
It was not uncommon when I went to be in a class that was apox 300~350 in size and only 110 were left standing at the end (the others VW-verbally withdrew), only to select 75~80. The remainder were either invited back or told they should not return.

Sorry for the winded reply, I try to cover all the details. Hope I answered enough for you.

-Cecil
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  #32  
Old 19 November 1999, 01:08
RKW
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Cecil, you mentioned making the cut-off for OCS, which I believe is 30. However, ive read that after 4 or more years military expierence, you can only rise to the rank of captain. Is this true? Does someone with a lot of prior enlisted service get promoted faster/slower?
Thanks
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  #33  
Old 26 November 1999, 12:19
static static is offline
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happy late thanksgiving everyone. i was just assigned to the 19th SFG in wv and wanted to talk to some of you guys before i go in for drill on jan 22,23. i was on active duty and jump status at bragg for 4 years and after being out for a full 3 months i felt i owed it to myself to get back into it. SF being the only way to go. i managed to get an"E" slot and will go to SFAS sometime soon. if someone would drop me a line from the 19th i would greatly appreciate it and i hope to see you guys soon.
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  #34  
Old 30 November 1999, 01:55
Scout
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Static,

Hillbilly here has recently joined the 19th GRP's BN in W.V. with the NQPs. you may know him.

Scout
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  #35  
Old 30 November 1999, 09:11
static static is offline
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hillbilly,
drop me a line and tell me a little about life in the 19th. thanx.

static
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