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  #61  
Old 10 January 2006, 17:24
ODA 564 ODA 564 is offline
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Gee, you mean the fellows that applied the lessons of WW II and Korea to develop the module TO&E weren't stupid?

The Norman re-organization that 4th POG underwent (and then forced on the RC POGs) was designed for a post-Cold War "peace dividend" world that never really materialized (DS/DS, then the post DS draw-down and Clinton's 'wag the dog' interventions fixed that). It was designed for a world based on the 1980s 1st POB experience, not a global war on 'not-nice'.

The entire POG structure is inadequate to the task. PSYOP has two components. The operational level (theater campaign development-execution and product development - which includes research, media selection, etc.) and the 'tactical' (which is the implementation of the actual product - face-to-face, action, etc.). A troop movement may be a tactical psyop action in support of the themes and objectives of the campaign plan - without a single tactical PSYDET involved.

The operational piece needs to be a theater-level structure. A one-star or colonel command, with a development team structure that commands attention. Smarter-then-hell Specialists with MAs get ignored by theater commanders. Truth.

Tactical. WE"RE FIGHTING A FUCKING INSURGENCY HERE. The wheel was invented a long time ago!

1. Issue loudspeakers as an MTO&E item to every maneuver unit (company size) in the Army. Figure a way that the only messages it broadcasts are approved ones (secure data link with an encryption key?). You need Dari-speaking Taliban to surrender? Play B17. Make it so Joe can't hook up his MP3 player to it (PLEASE!).

2. Restructure tactical assets to be 'face-to-face' PSYOP assets, learning rapport-building, cross-cultural communications, identification of key communicators, etc.

Media is media. Cyberpunk is fiction (now). No one else is as technologically sophisticated as we are.
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  #62  
Old 10 January 2006, 19:48
Krall Krall is offline
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I am with you Boss man.........

And you said it all very well........

You sound as rant-a-holic about this stuff as I do ---
I get real miffed talking to some of those Norman era folks -


Argh ---

I owe you a phone call - but been tied up with this issue and it's impact on IT etc...
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  #63  
Old 10 January 2006, 20:07
Krall Krall is offline
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So there we were in 93 coming into the UN taking over the mission in Somalia...

Our biggest asset wasn't loudspeakers - it was our ability to get the mood of the people (too much detail - will keep this short and simple) and pass it up. Before we left (not all of us - but the majority) the first time, our biggest message up to the US side at the JTF was "do not choose sides whatever you do" - this was emphasized more than once. So the US remains to act as a reaction force to all the other nations playing. Next thing we know ---- teedum.......da........ TF Ranger and the big hunt......

And we all know how that ended up

And back we went in force....

And all the trust we had built up with the people was gone ---

Lot more to this than I could write in a day --

Just to strengthen what ODA 564 said........

So the big question is how to fix it ? I guess some of those post Noman folks are up in DC working on plans to revamp PSYOP. But in my opinion - We should look to the historical past.... before we leap forward into an uncertain future
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  #64  
Old 10 January 2006, 21:54
ilots ilots is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krall
Our biggest asset wasn't loudspeakers - it was our ability to get the mood of the people (too much detail - will keep this short and simple) and pass it up.
What! The next thing you know you'll be expecting PSYOP to focus on tactical and strategic INFLUENCE rather than on quantifiable bullet points focusing on amounts of product rather than the effects. Then you'll try and make us believe that giving out product and messages ISN'T the actual end-state.

This is crazy, what everyone knows PSYOP needs are leaflets blimps.




Hey, where is the sarcasm button on this thing?
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  #65  
Old 10 January 2006, 22:31
Krall Krall is offline
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LMAO
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  #66  
Old 11 January 2006, 08:57
ODA 564 ODA 564 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilots
What! The next thing you know you'll be expecting PSYOP to focus on tactical and strategic INFLUENCE rather than on quantifiable bullet points focusing on amounts of product rather than the effects. Then you'll try and make us believe that giving out product and messages ISN'T the actual end-state.
Damn! I'm flashbacking to 4th POG daily updates in US Army Vietnam staff briefs! And I wan't even there...

"Sir, in the past 24 hours 7 million leaflets with 10 seperate themes were dropped over War Zone D in 200 air missions utilizing 75 US Army rotary wing platforms; 75 USAF propeller-driven platforms and 50 USAF jet platforms, resulting in 17 tons of paper being delivered on target on suspected enemy troop locations and hostile and neutral Vietnamese civilans.

"Concurrently, in the past 24 hours, 28,800 minutes of radio product dessimination was conducted on 1 FM and 1 AM frequencies. This provided target area coverage of the entire landmass of South Vietnam. No incursions into non-South Vietnamese areas were conducted. We expect to increase output to 57,600 minutes daily with the addition of an additional AM and FM frequency.

"Sir, this concludes my portion of the briefing!"

Throw weight baby, throw weight.
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Last edited by ODA 564; 11 January 2006 at 09:00.
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  #67  
Old 11 January 2006, 09:01
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ODA 564,

Everything you have just stated still happens. Numbers numbers numbers........
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  #68  
Old 12 January 2006, 12:56
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No shit.

It happened in Bosnia, passing out months old issues of HOP just because we had to have dissemination stats.

"WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DIDN'T HAND OUT ANYTHING? HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO QUANTIFY WHAT YOU DID? LATINIC/CYRILLIC BE DAMNED, HAND THE SHIT OUT."

Regardless of the fact that the people resented being handed old product that they had already seen. It did more damage than good.

In Iraq we were force fed products that were not suitable for wrapping fish. Fortunately by this time, I was the DET NCOIC and had some say as to what was leaving my product room. An awful lot of shit got burned.

Other Det's did the same thing based on what was happening in their AOR's. Yet the push to have big numbers for the Division BUB was still the "be all, end all".

I saw similar events in Thailand during CG '01. We were up in the hills promoting a MEDCAP to people who are illliterate. We made use of the LSS, and did an ass load of F2F, but were still required to hand out scripted leaflets, with no pictures to PEOPLE WHO DON'T READ.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ODA564
Smarter-then-hell Specialists with MAs get ignored by theater commanders. Truth.
Some shit never changes, and it's not just Theater Commanders, nor is it any better if you are a SFC instead of a Specialist. Products that were requested, along with the TAAS/PAWS supporting them never saw the light of day in the POTF because they did not come from an O-4. Any idea that did not originate in the POTF was a non-idea. We did not even get so much as a "no", it was simply ignored. A "no, because..." would have been really nice. All that shit about the assets on the ground being the SME in their AOR's turned out to be nothing but smoke being blown up our asses.

We could have made the SCIRI and the Sadr Bureau non-entities before they got up to full steam. Every reconstruction project happening in Sadr city was claimed by the Sadr Bureau, even the ones with soldiers working in uniform. They would claim that THEY are the ones who got the US off it's ass and started working. Their plan worked and allegiance to them grew. All we wanted was a silly logo to be able to identify Coalition work sites done "in cooperation with your NAC/DAC*" It would have supported the legitimacy of the NAC/DAC, but because the idea was coming from a RC NCO, it died at birth.

*Neighborhood Area Council/District Area Council. This was part of the governmental reconfiguration picture passed down from Bremer's Office.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ODA564
The operational piece needs to be a theater-level structure. A one-star or colonel command, with a development team structure that commands attention.
This was the position I gave to MG Altschuler when he came to Baghdad. We were being completely misused and shoved way outside our lane because the biggest muscle we had in country at the time was an O-5. He got his heels locked by the V Corps Commander and was told in no uncertain terms, "I will tell you what is PSYOP and you will do it." We finally got a Bird, but by the time he got there, there was an awful lot of turf he had to reclaim, and it was ugly.

As for the AC/RC thing, it is old as the hills. When I was AD, I had no use for "wekend warriors".

When I became a RC Soldier, I found a home in a unit that was technically and tactically proficient. All of the Company leadership was prior AD, and none of us were ever going to allow any Soldier from our unit look/act/perform like "just a Reservist". Everyone, in and out of PSYOP, thought we were AD Soldiers.

Let no one be fooled: RC PSYOP is NOT one weekend a month and two weeks in the summer. During the time I was in the 361st, I held two full-time jobs: Deputy Sheriff, and Det NCOIC for TPD1280. All of the senior leadership approached it that way.

If the AC and the RC are split, PSYOP will suffer. 4th POG cannot do it alone, and the RC, if sliced off to the "big army" will end up being nothing more than PAO/MWR for their supported units because they have no one to tell the conventional commanders what the left/right limits are.

PSYOP needs its own Star, and needs to stay unified, or go back to the days of being an MI function. If it becomes an "organic asset" to each maneuver Division/SBCT, it will cease being used, or worse it will be used incorrectly.

JMHO
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  #69  
Old 12 January 2006, 18:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TPD1280
No shit.

In Iraq we were force fed products that were not suitable for wrapping fish.

An awful lot of shit got burned.
Preach on Brother....

Shit is broken, and it's not at the young PSYOPER level.
Communication and liason..... Crap.
Clear lines of approval.... Yeah right.
A coordinated unified effort?? Shit.... Principles of War??? Who needs 'em.

Here is a definition to chew on:

dodo n., an extinct flightless bird, once a native of the island of Mauritius. Discovered 1598, extinct by 1681.
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  #70  
Old 18 January 2006, 22:50
psyopranger psyopranger is offline
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So do we have a definate "what the fuck is going to happen" to us yet??

I have a CA 1SG here at Bliss with me telling me that USACAPOC is going to FORSCOM on Pope and the 96th is staying in SOF??

I rebutted: 4th POG and 96th are staying in SOF, he say's no. I said someone is fucking the rumor mill goddess in the sky.

jtorak28,

Now I see what happened to the BNCOC tests? USASMA Battle Staff is issuing us new FM's and then the tests have questions from the old FM's?? WTF Over???

BTW, for future training. Plans, Orders and Annexes is huge down here as well as Graphics and Overlays (kicked some peoples asses) and IPB. They are also going exclusively to MCS instead of FBCB2

I think you guys are right on with teaching what you are. It helped me a lot for this shit. Except that these SGL's want to have class everyday until 18-1900, when the fuck are we supposed to drink???

PR Out.
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  #71  
Old 19 January 2006, 06:38
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37F5V 37F5V is offline
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4th and 96th are USASOC.

Keeping classes and tests updated to the new FM's is a never ending (and RETARDED) battle. It sucks no doubt about it, but it is the lesser of two evils in my opinion. I would rather teach current doctrine out of current FM's and have my exams a little off than teach old shit that is no longer relevant. That is teaching to test and is a waste of time and effort. Now if your SGL's grade by the letter of the law (teach you new shit, test old shit and then ding you for mistakes) without providing the neccessary info for success then bad on them. Just remember that they can only teach IAW what they are given... So have a bit of mercy on them.

BNCOC is about 100% revamped from when you attended. Battle Staff is going to be part of our program. I gave Bob big left and right limits and he put all of that experience to good use. Dudes are going to come out of that 30 level course knowing more than most other 40 level cats around the Army (concerning MDMP and all that is entailed).

We are keeping FBCB2 for the time being until I see what BSNCOC is going to add to my course. We currently have access to just about any of that digitized stuff out there to include MCS-L and SOF planning tools.

Good luck out there.... and if you still have that poobah gut of yours then you don't NEED to drink.

Later
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  #72  
Old 21 January 2006, 16:27
psyopranger psyopranger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtorak28
and if you still have that poobah gut of yours then you don't NEED to drink.
That was my post-deployment beer tank.

I still scored a 286 on the PT test and got jipped out of my Leadership and Distinguised Honor Grade Award. (Violin music playing)

How will I ever compete with all the other high speed E6's?? LOL!!

Just Kidding brother
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  #73  
Old 2 July 2006, 01:28
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Dejavu all over again

In reading this thread, I was struck how much has and hasn't changed in the PSYOP community. I was in SSD, HHC, 8th POB in the early 1980s and virtually everything we complained about, from old equipment to an over-ficus on PT, to outdated doctrine, still seem to be issues. New equipment is great, of course PSYOP personnel need to physically fit and well trained in common tasks and tactical skills. But they must also be able to accomplish the PSYOP mission first if they are to be any use. When will we learn?
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  #74  
Old 3 July 2006, 09:14
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TPD1280 TPD1280 is offline
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Ham,

Welcome, good job reading the SOP's and filling out your profile.

I gotta ask...1978-1993...15 years? WTF, over? Why didn't you finish?
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  #75  
Old 3 July 2006, 12:16
ilots ilots is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ham
I was struck how much has and hasn't changed in the PSYOP community..... When will we learn?
Would that mean "lessons spurned" &/or "lessons accumulated" ???
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  #76  
Old 3 July 2006, 12:38
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Quote:
"lessons spurned"
now THAT'S funny right there
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