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Old 10 March 2012, 11:34
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Archive?

Question of the day.....Would NSWG-1 have a generated documents archive? The reason that I ask is that I have finally made some headway with the records folks and I need to find some documents to support my claims of being in places I said I was. As I have said before this is not because I am trying to get something from the VA or hey I was here and got hurt. I am trying to get all of my awards together and get a DD-215 issued that shows those awards.

If there is an archive then they should have orders that were cut with personnel listed....

example: As I attended every Ulchi Focus Lens and Foal Eagle every year that I was at NSWG-1 (almost 6 years) I am eligible for the Korea Defense Service Medal....but the only thing I have showing I spent anytime in Korea is a LOA from CDR Foreman (CO NSWU-1/P.I.) and a LOC from 7th fleet.

Another example is I was in Saudi for the entire DS/DS event (I was on the 3rd bird that left North Island and was on one of the last birds to come home)which makes me eligible for the Kuwait and Saudi awards but they are not on my 214....this is just a couple of examples.

I know that I should have been more responsible back then and checked closer but at the time I didn't care. As I get older it is amazing the things that are so very important to me and the things I want to leave my kids.

Any assistance or a POC would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 10 March 2012, 15:30
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Originally Posted by RedDawg_03 View Post
Question of the day.....Would NSWG-1 have a generated documents archive? The reason that I ask is that I have finally made some headway with the records folks and I need to find some documents to support my claims of being in places I said I was. As I have said before this is not because I am trying to get something from the VA or hey I was here and got hurt. I am trying to get all of my awards together and get a DD-215 issued that shows those awards.

If there is an archive then they should have orders that were cut with personnel listed....

example: As I attended every Ulchi Focus Lens and Foal Eagle every year that I was at NSWG-1 (almost 6 years) I am eligible for the Korea Defense Service Medal....but the only thing I have showing I spent anytime in Korea is a LOA from CDR Foreman (CO NSWU-1/P.I.) and a LOC from 7th fleet.

Another example is I was in Saudi for the entire DS/DS event (I was on the 3rd bird that left North Island and was on one of the last birds to come home)which makes me eligible for the Kuwait and Saudi awards but they are not on my 214....this is just a couple of examples.

I know that I should have been more responsible back then and checked closer but at the time I didn't care. As I get older it is amazing the things that are so very important to me and the things I want to leave my kids.

Any assistance or a POC would be greatly appreciated.
Mr. RedDawg
At first I was not going to offer my knowledge on individual records keeping to keep myself out of any fray. But allow me to say how it was "in my day", and I suspect it is still that way.

I was in the Teams in the early 1950's. A time zone no one cared who was in what Team or what Frogmen were. Then when the SEAL Database was constructed they found out they had no "eyeball" wittness to the Korean War who could work a computer, that is, except me. So the keepers of the SEAL Database xeroxed about 600 pages of documents associated with a records keeping entity called "The Daily Diary". The Diary was a day to day recond of names and stats, and the Daily Diary was a mainstay of the Navy for I do not know how many years. But the Diary lists each man where they were on each day everyday.
When someone asks me history on a a certain individual during the early 1950's I have to go thru 3 sets of documents, taking approx 20-45 minutes to locate that one man on that one day.

With modern day computers I do not know if NSWG-1 has such documentation on individuals on individual days. I do know that ComNSW phones/emails me from time to time to ask about Korean War (1950-1953) history.

I offer you this long story so you will know what your are up against trying to prove where you were on certain days or certain time spans. To prove eligibility for awards it is not where the Unit was on certain days, but rather where the individual was on certain day; in that, with Detachments and TDY's being a popular thing in the Teams one would have to find someone to do hours of work just to pin your name down to day to day location.

Do not misunderdand my intent. I do not mean to deny you any awards or cease to try to prove your location on certain days. But I just wanted you to know the difficulty you will run into, plus the lack of replies you would like to read.

But good luck on your search. Sorry I was the bearer of bad news but I wanted you to know why someone may not come forward and tell you where you were on certain days because there is a Daily Diary or some form of day to day record to support your cause.

Ken Garrett
UDT-1/1950
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Old 10 March 2012, 17:22
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Understand. Not taking it as bad news. It is what it is.This was a recommendation from someone here in DC. There should be a records keeping 101 class as you walk in the door or on your way out. There probably was someone that was saying along the way make sure you keep all of your stuff, I just didn't hear them. I appreciate any and all responses and I figured that you, Frog or Matchanu would have an answer. Once again sir thank you for your help and your service
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Old 11 March 2012, 15:27
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So I thought about this quite a bit last night and there were several things that I thought about...first thing is no doubt the responsibility sits with me or anyone else for that matter that is leaving active duty to make sure that my/their shit is wired tight before we walk out of the door....but reflecting back on some of the entries on this sight there have been several members that had issues with incomplete 214's that they were never successful in getting corrected. It makes me wonder how many out there are walking around with fucked up documents with no resources to get them fixed.
Now if any of them or myself for that matter were to state to someone that (and I'm using my missing stuff cause I don't remember their specifics) Yep I was in DS/DS from start to finish, or I was here or I went to this school, But I have no way to prove it because it doesn't show the awards/school that anyone who was involved would have, then now that person thinks that I'm a fucking poser.....Of course I would think they were a poser also with most of the douches that I have ran into and some that have been exposed on this sight...let me say that this has not occurd to me, I am just using it as an emaple of what could happen. Kinda bizzare to me that we can prove and have resources to verify if someone did or didn't do something based on what we find at NPRC. Guy comes along and says that he has gone to Space Shuttle Gunner School and has a certificate, but it doesn't show up on a records check and the only way he has to prove it is via the certificate. In this day and age with a nice enough printer you can print off almost anything....does that make him a poser? I have a SERE and a JEST certificate but those are the only items that prove I was there. I have reached out to the NAV Board of corrections and if you don't find out the issue within a couple of years then according to them it is very difficult or almost no way to correct it. I'm still pushing it and trying to fix things but it seems like an uphill battle that I will eventually run into a dead end wall....sorry for the rant, just a little frustrating.
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Last edited by RedDawg_03; 11 March 2012 at 15:38.
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Old 11 March 2012, 18:27
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With RedDawg's subject let me add:
I got out of Boots and was sent to MoMM (Motor Mack) "A" School. When I went aboard my first ship the Exec interviewed every new guy. I was assigned to Deck Force. I defended the assignment by saying I graduated from MoMM school. Exec says it does not show in your records. Deck Force. Hello janitor job.

Went into the Teams in 1950, did all my travel, bookoo combat deployments as combat Frogman. Did not want to be a Deck Rate so struck for Personnelman, but remained combat Frog. (Regular Fleet Rating in those days).

Like all support rates I did a little office work during the day but hit the balmy water and girls with little umbrella drinks on the beach during most days. Was always a combat Frog during all deployments. Seasoned farts always did the combat ops, with the same "we'll wait for you" faces awaiting at the APD lifeline for us as we returned from an ops. I did a service extension instead of a Reenliment. So when I was first Discharge with my then Rate of E-6 I did my own DD214. I had all my stuff on my DD214 becaue it was mine.

But most DD214's are done by E-3 or E-4 YN's or PN's who are tired of the repetition and who love to exert their authority. So if the incumbent being Discharged don't read their DD214 before they leave the desk of the admin guy, and speak up for any corrects sought, you are pretty much screwed.

Read your Discharge and your DD214 at the appropriate time while your still at the Desk of the admin YN. PN, or Army Admin. Many a soul has circled the drain by being thrilled with their Discharge, that is, until they want a perk that only a DD214 can support, and (oh shit!), no recording of proper credit.

Read guys. Make it right before you depart the desk.
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Old 11 March 2012, 19:20
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Red Dawg,

Your Service/Medical record doesn't show DS/DS service in any way? 'Cause mine does, 'course I was on a ship. How about your evals? Is it listed there? Are you in contact with anyone who can vouch for it?

Cass, sir, there's more to Deck then just janitorial services...you can paint too... You're absolutely right about the DD214 though. I made them retype mine because they missed some important things, like say, SWCC. Caveat Emptor.
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Old 11 March 2012, 19:29
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My NDSMs were left off the first draft of my 214...
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Old 11 March 2012, 21:07
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Red Dawg,

Your Service/Medical record doesn't show DS/DS service in any way? 'Cause mine does, 'course I was on a ship. How about your evals? Is it listed there? Are you in contact with anyone who can vouch for it?

Cass, sir, there's more to Deck then just janitorial services...you can paint too... You're absolutely right about the DD214 though. I made them retype mine because they missed some important things, like say, SWCC. Caveat Emptor.
Brother I have been out since 1992. I don't have most of that stuff anymore. I wish I had been smarter. There are only one or two that I still stay in touch with from back then. I plan to keep working though. I figure if I put enough documentation together it will make a great arguement for whoever in the long run....
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Old 11 March 2012, 22:25
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Originally Posted by RedDawg_03 View Post
Brother I have been out since 1992. I don't have most of that stuff anymore. I wish I had been smarter. There are only one or two that I still stay in touch with from back then. I plan to keep working though. I figure if I put enough documentation together it will make a great arguement for whoever in the long run....
Your evals are archived somewhere. Your microfiche is somewhere too. The VA might have gotten a copy of your med records. I looked myself up in a Navy DB the other day and it had proof of something I did in 92.
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Old 11 March 2012, 23:02
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Red Dawg

Cass, sir, there's more to Deck then just janitorial services...you can paint too...
.
My first ship was a Light Cruiser, wooden decks midships right where my Division was assigned. Every Friday, holy stoning. For those lucky salts that don't know holy stoning, that is placing a broom stick into a short hole in a cement brick and cleaning the wooden decks. Real career encouragement.

Paint? Yes. You paint the same spots over and over again. Brillant.
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Old 12 March 2012, 00:00
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I'll see what I can do. PM me your e-mail address, we'll go from there. Given your dates of service the records are probably at an FRC (Federal Records Center) or at NARA, but...well, we'll see what I can do. The short answer is yes, they are required by law to keep records for certain disposition periods that govern the different types, but that also depends on the unit and how diligent they were.
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Old 12 March 2012, 09:10
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My first ship was a Light Cruiser, wooden decks midships right where my Division was assigned. Every Friday, holy stoning. For those lucky salts that don't know holy stoning, that is placing a broom stick into a short hole in a cement brick and cleaning the wooden decks. Real career encouragement.

Paint? Yes. You paint the same spots over and over again. Brillant.
Rust Never Sleeps
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Old 12 March 2012, 09:23
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Thank you Kid. Information sent.
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Old 13 March 2012, 14:02
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I've responded to RedDawg, but putting some info out there in the interest of knowledge sharing:

Here is a site where you can obtain your military records:

http://www.archives.gov/veterans/mil...rvice-records/

However these are your personal records and likely only as good as you updated them.

Group Records (or Division, Brigade, Company, etc) are required, by law, to be kept. Back in the timeframe in question these were all paper so things determined to be "of value" to the Republic are stuck in a box according to a file plan and shipped off to an FRC (Federal Records Center) to live out their lifespan according to their disposition schedule (i.e., how long a certain record has been determined to be kept). Permanent records (of value to the Republic for the life of the Republic) are sent to NARA (National Archives and Records Administration) forever.

Obtaining these records is more difficult as it requires submitting requests and someone has to physically look through the archives to determine what was sent, where it is, and then they pull the box, etc, etc, etc. It takes time, and money. It's not done for free. It also depends on how diligent the unit was in 1: Saving/archiving/shipping their records and 2: Recording/annotating their records so they can be found.

Most everything now is being done electronically and saved that way, but it still depends on human beings doing the work. "Records" that are filed in an approved Records Management system are easier to find than records/information that are stuck in an "archive" system (A Records system will file things according to file plans, an archive system just grabs data and keeps it). Imagine one is like an electronic file drawer with folders labled - the archive is more like a room where information metadata is logged, but then everything is just stuck into a big room in no real order.

To make matters even more difficult, NSW was stood up in 1987 as the Naval component to USSOCOM, so everything post 1987 -should- fall under USSOCOM's purview but that's not always the case. Even today some of NSW's records belong to Big Navy, others belong to USSOCOM.

Just a reminder that you (general you), and you alone, are responsible for maintaining your records. I know I lost an AAM -and- and ARCOM when I got out because I was lazy and irresponsible.

Hopefully we'll be able to find the information he needs, but it will take work.
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Last edited by KidA; 13 March 2012 at 14:10.
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Old 13 March 2012, 14:19
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Great link ! thank You for posting KidA !
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Old 13 March 2012, 15:16
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I seem to recall that a VA physician told me that there was a fire where records were kept... sometime around 1979, and some of my VA medical records had to be reconstructed. Can anyone confirm that?
There come a time in your life where those records just don't mean as much as they used to.
No where on my DD214 does it indicate that I went to Jump School and received Jump Wings; but it does show that I served with the Herd in '66-'67... necessitating Wings. (huge shrug)
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Old 13 March 2012, 22:08
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http://www.archives.gov/st-louis/military-personnel/fire-1973.html

On July 12, 1973, a disastrous fire at the National Personnel Records Center (NPRC) destroyed approximately 16-18 million Official Military Personnel Files (OMPF). The records affected:

Branch Personnel and Period Affected Estimated Loss
Army Personnel discharged November 1, 1912 to January 1, 1960 80%
Air Force Personnel discharged September 25, 1947 to January 1, 1964
(with names alphabetically after Hubbard, James E.) 75%

No duplicate copies of these records were ever maintained, nor were microfilm copies produced. Neither were any indexes created prior to the fire. In addition, millions of documents had been lent to the Department of Veterans Affairs before the fire occurred. Therefore, a complete listing of the records that were lost is not available. However, in the years following the fire, the NPRC collected numerous series of records (referred to as Auxiliary Records) that are used to reconstruct basic service information.


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Old 14 March 2012, 07:03
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BINGO!
Thank you for refreshing my memory.
Oddly, I was discharged in 1968, but my VA files were affected (so the VA doctor said). In the end, I have everything I need; so, no loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince View Post
http://www.archives.gov/st-louis/military-personnel/fire-1973.html

On July 12, 1973, a disastrous fire at the National Personnel Records Center (NPRC) destroyed approximately 16-18 million Official Military Personnel Files (OMPF). The records affected:

Branch Personnel and Period Affected Estimated Loss
Army Personnel discharged November 1, 1912 to January 1, 1960 80%
Air Force Personnel discharged September 25, 1947 to January 1, 1964
(with names alphabetically after Hubbard, James E.) 75%

No duplicate copies of these records were ever maintained, nor were microfilm copies produced. Neither were any indexes created prior to the fire. In addition, millions of documents had been lent to the Department of Veterans Affairs before the fire occurred. Therefore, a complete listing of the records that were lost is not available. However, in the years following the fire, the NPRC collected numerous series of records (referred to as Auxiliary Records) that are used to reconstruct basic service information.


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