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Old 1 September 2012, 22:21
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Anti-Ivory Poaching

New reality-based show currently starting production/filming in Africa; Former SOF types leading the cast of this anti ivory poaching effort. Game wardens have been getting their asses handed to them, by ivory poachers.

Should be interesting with former Team guys and Brit SAS reportedly going up against organized poachers.

UAV's supposedly playing a huge part in detection and apprehending poachers.

...this is the most times I've typed the word "poachers" ever.
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Old 3 September 2012, 04:33
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Do they get to chop their arms off when they catch them?
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Old 3 September 2012, 06:25
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There is a member here who was approached about this, if I remember correctly.

KidA, he really likes fat people....hint hint.....
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Old 3 September 2012, 07:39
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This is a decades old problem. We spent months in Kenya training their para's to hunt Poachers from Uganda. A band of poachers shot up an entire platoon of Kenyan paratroopers.

I have a picture of me feeding hay to a rhino in a game preserve. When I cam back for the Op, he had been poisoned and was sick and no longer in his pen that was open to the public.

Bastards.......
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Old 3 September 2012, 08:08
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Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post
This is a decades old problem. We spent months in Kenya training their para's to hunt Poachers from Uganda........
That was "the trip to have" back in the 70's. Our company got to do it twice.
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Old 3 September 2012, 08:19
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Fought this one before...and we lost 1988-1997. We had Brit SAS, NZ SAS and US Delta teams operating along side us- 'live training'. Particularly before the first Gulf war it was seen as a good way to expose troops to 'real combat'. US donated two Cessna 337's with flull NV and IR kit and following gulf war both the yanks and brits sent us a bunch of captured (Russian) NV sights off Iraqi tanks.

By the time the last of the rhino were gone from The Zambezi Valley we had killed c1100 'poachers'. 9 of our men were dead and one Brit SAS guy had been killed (by an elephant).

Technology has improved, but sadly so has the poverty and these days the more sucessful poachers seem to have Mil 35 helicopter gunships, and so it is only the low grade 'peasants' who get killed as the bad guys have 'official' protection.
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Old 3 September 2012, 08:26
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Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post
This is a decades old problem. We spent months in Kenya training their para's to hunt Poachers from Uganda. A band of poachers shot up an entire platoon of Kenyan paratroopers.

...Bastards...
What he said. SF spent decades in East Africa doing counter-poaching training. Not as 'sexy' as hunting terrorists; although environmental destruction is pretty significant. Some analysis suggests that poaching and it's logistics network serve as an entry opportunity for other insurgent activity. Poaching is a political hot potato locally, nationally and internationally.

I don't see a reality TV series doing anything but harm regarding poaching and stopping it. Like all other reality shows, the producers will chase the ratings, set up confrontations and slink away when it turns to sh*t.

If it was treated as a true insurgent activity, there would be a lot of dead people on both sides, vice hippies wringing their hands. This isn't "Whale Wars".
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Old 3 September 2012, 09:59
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http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=107643

Long thread we had few months ago, discussing this a bit.

Couple of us here on this site have been involved in this line of work last several years. Problem is much is linked to Chinese organized crime (not only in Asia but Africa as well) and also ties into much other illegal activity. We had around 60 elephants in the wildlife sanctuary I was working in Cambodia, we were protecting. Many other endangered species. Sometimes armed poachers, many times snares and traps (removed around 3000 in one year also). Biggest threat though is the loss of habitat, due to corruption granting economic land concessions or mining rights with protected area boundaries, or legal and illegal logging operation.

Currently working on my research dissertation for my Master's Degree in environmental management, titles "effectiveness of armed law enforcement in the protection of bio-diversity and ecosystem management in post conflict areas". And is interesting to find out in the course of my research/work all the positive effects law enforcement/anti-poaching procedures have, but also many of the negative impacts.
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Old 3 September 2012, 10:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracy View Post
........I don't see a reality TV series doing anything but harm regarding poaching and stopping it. Like all other reality shows, the producers will chase the ratings, set up confrontations and slink away when it turns to sh*t.........

Yep.
There are a plethora of reasons why eradicating ivory poaching is near impossible, most of them dealing with economics, although tradition plays a not small part as well, mostly in the Japanese market.
To find real solutions, out-of-the-box thinking is required, something sorely lacking by all those concerned.
Along with my work in Africa, I also worked with a local NGO for close to two years in an undercover role in india, dealing primarily with exactly this issue. Asian elephants present a unique problem in that only the male have tusks, so the result of killing for ivory is an extremely skewed gender ratio within the population.
There is no way to properly address this subject in a post on a forum.....it would take pages, but there is one facet that I will mention here that I pushed very hard for, and consequently was labeled a black sheep/troublemaker within the captive world (zoos).
Many years ago I traveled to conferences throughout the States and worldwide (by invitation) to deliver a paper I had written called "Breeding Dinosaurs".
My work with cheetahs, both in captivity as well as for years in Southern Africa (Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, S.Africa) brought me to the conclusion that all the captive breeding success (cheetah breeding behavior is unique in the feline world) won't save the cat, only working with indigenous issues, in the field, with the local peoples that are actually affected will bring about change. If change didn't happen in their natural habitats, than we were in fact only breeding dinosaurs in captivity, as soon that would be the only place where a cheetah would exist, and this included captive breeding programs of other endangered species as well.
Long, long story short, and to bring this back to ivory poaching......there are certain exotic species that simply do not belong in captivity, with elephants (and cheetah) topping that list. There is simply no way, regardless of how much money is spent, to create an environment suited for elephants in captivity.....period.
If elephant preservation was truly the goal, the hundreds of millions spent by zoo's on elephant habitats would be better spent by giving locals financial incentive to protect their ely's from poaching. Paying good salaries to rangers, giving them good uniforms, good vehicles, good weapons, etc. would be a start, and go a long ways.
As it stands now, a local ranger whose mandate includes anti-poaching has a very difficult time turning away from the much more lucrative business of either actively engaging in poaching, or simply agreeing to look the other way.
Years ago the Bronx Zoo spent 50 million dollars on their new Africa exhibit. I pointed out that that money, along with the massive dollars spent by some of the other bigger zoo in America, such as Columbus, San Diego, etc. would be better spent on acquiring huge tracts of land to create reserves in Africa and India, and hiring and supporting locals to staff said reserves, and that zoos should focus their energies on their own local species and the conservation issues they face. Think of the issues such as salmon, raptors, cougars, and many more including less known and less romantic that are in dire need right in their own back yards. Just as it will be Americans who will ultimately decide the fate of their indigenous endangered species, so it it that it will be Africans and Indians that will ultimately decide the fate of theirs.
Of course, zoo's make their money from species such as elephant, cheetah, tiger et al, and there is no way that they would be willing to drop those species from their collections in order to focus primarly on their local species issues, and funnel some of those monies into true conservation solutions that would begin to deal seriously with those other large exotics, such as elephants, in their native habitat.

Bottom line (Finally, I know) is that the poaching issue will never go away until there is a financial incentive for the local peoples to help protect their native mega fauna, such as elephants and rhinos.
And even then, that doesn't begin to touch the traditional incentives to poach and sell ivory, primarily for the Japanese hanko market, and getting them off of their taste for ivory is a whole 'nuther subject.

Sorry for the long-winded and somewhat stream-of-consciousness, freewheeling and disjointed response here, but this is a subject near and dear to me and one in which I spent much of my career dealing with.
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Last edited by sabasarge; 3 September 2012 at 11:20.
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  #10  
Old 3 September 2012, 11:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabasarge View Post
Yep.
There are a plethora of reasons why eradicating ivory poaching is near impossible, most of them dealing with economics, although tradition plays a not small part as well, mostly in the Japanese market.
To find real solutions, out-of-the-box thinking is required, something sorely lacking by all those concerned.
Along with my work in Africa, I also worked with a local NGO for close to two years in an undercover role in india, dealing primarily with exactly this issue. Asian elephants present a unique problem in that only the male have tusks, so the result of killing for ivory is an extremely skewed gender ratio within the population.
There is no way to properly address this subject in a post on a forum.....it would take pages, but there is one facet that I will mention here that I pushed very hard for, and consequently was labeled a black sheep/troublemaker within the captive world (zoos).
Many years ago I traveled to conferences throughout the States and worldwide (by invitation) to deliver a paper I had written called "Breeding Dinosaurs".
My work with cheetahs, both in captivity as well as for years in Southern Africa (Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, S.Africa) brought me to the conclusion that all the captive breeding success (cheetah breeding behavior is unique in the feline world) won't save the cat, only working with indigenous issues, in the field, with the local peoples that are actually affected will bring about change. If change didn't happen in their natural habitats, than we were in fact only breeding dinosaurs in captivity, as soon that would be the only place where a cheetah would exist, and this included captive breeding programs of other endangered species as well.
Long, long story short, and to bring this back to ivory poaching......there are certain exotic species that simply do not belong in captivity, with elephants (and cheetah) topping that list. There is simply no way, regardless of how much money is spent, to create an environment suited for elephants in captivity.....period.
If elephant preservation was truly the goal, the hundreds of millions spent by zoo's on elephant habitats would be better spent by giving locals financial incentive to protect their ely's from poaching. Paying good salaries to rangers, giving them good uniforms, good vehicles, good weapons, etc. would be a start, and go a long ways.
As it stands now, a local ranger whose mandate includes anti-poaching has a very difficult time turning away from the much more lucrative business of either actively engaging in poaching, or simply agreeing to look the other way.
Years ago the Bronx Zoo spent 50 million dollars on their new Africa exhibit. I pointed out that that money, along with the massive dollars spent by some of the other bigger zoo in America, such as Columbus, San Diego, etc. would be better spent on acquiring huge tracts of land to create reserves in Africa and India, and hiring and supporting locals to staff said reserves, and that zoos should focus their energies on their own local species and the conservation issues they face. Think of the issues such as salmon, raptors, cougars, and many more including less known and less romantic that are in dire need right in their own back yards. Just as it will be Americans who will ultimately decide the fate of their indigenous endangered species, so it it that it will be Africans and Indians that will ultimately decide the fate of theirs.
Of course, zoo's make their money from species such as elephant, cheetah, tiger et al, and there is no way that they would be willing to drop those species from their collections in order to focus primarly on their local species issues, and funnel some of those monies into true conservation solutions that would begin to deal seriously with those other large exotics, such as elephants, in their native habitat.

Bottom line (Finally, I know) is that the poaching issue will never go away until there is a financial incentive for the local peoples to help protect their native mega fauna, such as elephants and rhinos.
And even then, that doesn't begin to touch the traditional incentives to poach and sell ivory, primarily for the Japanese hanko market, and getting them off of their taste for ivory is a whole 'nuther subject.

Sorry for the long-winded and somewhat stream-of-consciousness, freewheeling and disjointed response here, but this is a subject near and dear to me and one in which I spent much of my career dealing with.
Spot on Target! Well said x100. I could go on and on about the worthless money NGOs spend on countless climate-change workshops, conducting wildlife surveys, etc.. instead of supporting law enforcement personnel with the needed equipment and training. Too much talk, and not enough action. And when there is action and money, always going to the wrong places. New vehicles for office staff, but not for Rangers.

Last edited by leopardprey; 3 September 2012 at 11:33.
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Old 5 September 2012, 12:55
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Originally Posted by Hot Mess View Post
There is a member here who was approached about this, if I remember correctly.

KidA, he really likes fat people....hint hint.....
Ha. Last I was texting with him he was in a strip joint in FL and probably very glad he wasn't down there.
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