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Old 19 June 2013, 12:24
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Welcome Back, OV-10 Bronco? The OV-10G Combat Dragon II

Seems like a good idea, to me. Sure, apparently no one has survived ditching an OV-10 in water, but besides that, it's combat record speaks for itself... and is a simple, durable and rather cheap machine. Guess Boeing never gave-up on the OV-10X proposal since they announced it a few years back.

The Philippines and Colombia still operate their fleet. And the former had made a number of upgrades including Hartzell four-blade props to an augmented fleet of ex Thai AF machines. Seems like this machine might just have new life breathed back into it, in a big way?

Not as cool, as a turboprop-powered, Hellfire, APKWS and SBD lugging Skyraider, but hey, one can dream... Right?

-------------------
http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/s...-capabilities/
-------------------

Combat Dragon II Demonstrates OV-10G+ Bronco Capabilities






A close-up shot of the cockpit of one of the two OV-10G+ Bronco aircraft being used in the Combat Dragon II program. The "Black Pony" insignia on the nose is taken from the Vietnam-era VAL-4 light attack squadron, which also flew Broncos. this insignia was also seen on the A-29 flown for the Imminent Fury program. Photo by Gary Schenauer/High Sierra Spotter


In recent months, the U.S. special operations community has been quietly evaluating two North American OV-10G+ Bronco light combat aircraft at Naval Air Station Fallon, Nev., and at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev.




The Combat Dragon II program, a Limited Objective Experiment (LOE), is aimed at demonstrating that a small, turboprop-powered warplane can be effective in “high end/special aviation” missions of the kind encountered in Afghanistan. The experiment seeks similar information as Imminent Fury, which used a leased A-29B Super Tucano.
The Combat Dragon requirement for a light armed warplane for use in Afghanistan originated with the combatant commander there – at the time, Gen. Stanley McChrystal – and has been through on-again, off-again incarnations. The program enjoyed strong support from Marine Corps Gen. James N. Mattis, who headed U.S. Central Command from 2010 to 2013. Mattis told the Senate Armed Services Committee in March 2010 that using a robust, complex aircraft like an F-15E Strike Eagle to support troops patrolling rural villages “amounts to overkill.” According to a source, the current Combat Dragon II effort is purposely kept low-profile, but basic facts about it are not classified.
Congress tried to kill Combat Dragon II 18 months ago. Today, CENTCOM’s Science and Technology Division is running the LOE in cooperation with SOCOM.

Combatant Commander Support

The Combat Dragon requirement for a light armed warplane for use in Afghanistan originated with the combatant commander there – at the time, Gen. Stanley McChrystal – and has been through on-again, off-again incarnations. The program enjoyed strong support from Marine Corps Gen. James N. Mattis, who headed U.S. Central Command from 2010 to 2013. Mattis told the Senate Armed Services Committee in March 2010 that using a robust, complex aircraft like an F-15E Strike Eagle to support troops patrolling rural villages “amounts to overkill.” According to a source, the current Combat Dragon II effort is purposely kept low-profile, but basic facts about it are not classified.




The key to the concept is an inexpensive, simple, nimble combat aircraft capable of long loiter and on-call reconnaissance and attack duty, able to operate from austere airfields under primitive conditions and to deliver precision ordnance and employ state-of-the-art technology including electro-optical and infrared sensors, laser-guided munitions (the Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System (APKWS) II), and encrypted radios and night-vision gear.




Another view of the two OV-10G+ Broncos being tested as part of the Combat Dragon II LOE. Photo by Gary Mailander/High Sierra Spotters





This requirement may have its origins in the March 2002 Battle of Takur Ghar, also called the Battle of Roberts Ridge – a part of the larger Operation Anaconda – in which eight U.S. service members were killed and many wounded. Observers say that if an Air Force AC-130 Specter gunship on the scene had been able to stay on target and relay sensor intelligence and deliver precision munitions, the outcome of the battle might have been more favorable for the U.S. side.
Imminent Fury used an A-29B (now an official Pentagon designation for the Embraer EMB-314B Super Tucano) borrowed from the company then named Blackwater Worldwide. The same aircraft, now operated by Sierra Nevada Corp., has also been used as the demonstrator for the Air Force’s separate Light Air Support program, aimed at equipping the fledgling Afghan air force.




Under the original scheme for Phase Two, also called Combat Dragon II as early as 2010, four airframes – presumably Tucanos, although the Air Tractor AT-802U modified agricultural aircraft and the Beechcraft AT-6 Texan II were also considered as possibilities – would have deployed to Afghanistan to demonstrate their capabilities in real-world operations supporting Navy SEALs with air strikes against al Qaeda and Taliban fighters.




Congress killed the original scheme, in part because it appeared unlikely to favor the Wichita-built AT-6 Texan II supported by the Kansas legislative delegation and in part because lawmakers felt the Pentagon was attempting to slip the program past them without full notice or explanation.


The key to the concept is an inexpensive, simple, nimble combat aircraft capable of long loiter and on-call reconnaissance and attack duty, able to operate from austere airfields under primitive conditions and to deliver precision ordnance and employ state-of-the-art technology including electro-optical and infrared sensors, laser-guided munitions (the Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System (APKWS) II), and encrypted radios and night-vision gear.


Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz), a naval aviator, summed up the view of critics on Dec. 16, 2011, when he referred to a spending bill then under consideration: “Of the approximately 100 unrequested and unauthorized additions above the president’s budget request found in the Defense Appropriations bill,” said McCain, “one of the more concerning is a $20 million allocation for an obscure aircraft program called ‘Combat Dragon II.’ Although the name is interesting and sounds threatening enough, you won’t find it in the President’s Defense Budget request, nor did it appear in the Defense Authorization bill. So, again, I asked staff to pull the string on it and see what unraveled.”




McCain continued: “The purpose of the program is to lease up to four crop-duster-type aircraft [an apparent reference to the AT-802U] and to outfit them with machine gun pods, laser-guided bombs, rockets and air-to-air missiles. So, I directed my staff to see if this alleged requirement was justified and properly vetted and approved within the Pentagon by a Joint Urgent Operational Needs Statement, since it was not in the administration[s budget request. Once again the answer was a resounding 'No' – there is NO urgent operational requirement for this type of aircraft." The capital letters appear in the transcript as provided by McCain's office.
"After turning over the right rocks, we found that this aircraft lease will not be competitively awarded – shades of the infamous tanker lease program – and as such is effectively earmarked for a particular aircraft manufacturer who has the corner on this particularly obscure part of the aviation market." This could be a reference to either the A-29B or the AT-6.




A different kind of criticism came in an interview for this article with former Pentagon analyst Pierre Sprey, widely credited as the force behind the A-10 Thunderbolt II.
Sprey doesn't think a program aimed explicitly at Afghanistan will get funded when "we're leaving that country and getting out of that war." Sprey believes present-day technology would enable a vastly improved, cheaper A-10 type of aircraft that would be suitable for all intensities of warfare.




"Piddling around with light attack is not the way to help out our troops," Sprey told Defense Media Network. "In any case, a 'light attack aircraft' isn't going to happen in part because we're leaving Afghanistan next year and mostly because the Air Force despises the mission. We could do much better today if we developed a smaller, hotter, more lethal and survivable version of the A-10 and put the emphasis on 'close support' rather than on 'light attack.' Our troops need and deserve a true close support aircraft more than ever."

Revived and Re-funded

After Congress deleted $17 million from the plan to send four aircraft to Afghanistan, Pentagon officials obtained permission to re-channel funds from other programs and revived Combat Dragon II – not in the combat zone but stateside, at Fallon and Nellis – with a pair of OV-10G+ Broncos. The OV-10G+ aircraft are reportedly being flown by naval aviators.
The Broncos have are distinguished by their four-bladed props, electro-optical sensor pods, and other updates and modifications undertaken originally for the Colombian air force, and reportedly came from the State Department via NASA. Photo by Gary Mailander/High Sierra Spotters





The OV-10G+ represents the latest incarnation of a Vietnam-era aircraft design that was meant from the outset for forward air control and counter-insurgency.
The two aircraft in the Combat Dragon II program (bureau numbers 155481 and 155492) are among about a dozen former Marine Corps OV-10D+ models that were previously operated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. The author of this article flew in one of them and found the observers’ back-seat position to be quite noisy and to have poor visibility. When the ATF scaled down its plans for an air arm in the late 1990s, its OV-10D+ aircraft were turned over to the Department of State Air Wing, which uses them for counter-narcotics operations in Latin America. The unit is also known as the INL Air Wing, named for State’s Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement. The two aircraft then went to NASA and eventually became part of the Combat Dragon II program.




In recent years, this batch of about a dozen Broncos underwent various upgrades, with three modified to OV-10G+ standard (reprising a letter suffix that was used earlier for a very different OV-10G version intended for South Korean forces). The upgrade was accomplished by Marsh Aviation in at Falcon Field in Mesa, Ariz., and was done initially for the Colombian Air Force.




The OV-10G+ version now being evaluated has the same Garrett T76G-420/421 turboprops used on the OV-10D, but with four-bladed Hartzell propellers. The OV-10G+ also has an off-the-shelf sensor turret.

Closeted Combat Dragon II

Apart from the basics, no details are available on how the Combat Dragon II program is proceeding or what officials expect when current, AFSOC-generated funding expires on September 30. The two Broncos were recently observed on the East Ramp, also called the Atlantic Aviation Ramp, at Reno/Tahoe International Airport, returning from participation in an exercise called Jaded Thunder at Pahrump, Nev. Jaded Thunder is a joint effort that simulates engaging an enemy in an urban environment. It has been held periodically using a variety of special-purpose military aircraft, including the Pilatus PC-12 and the AC-130.




So why is the seemingly routine Combat Dragon II program kept so low-key? It’s easy to speculate that the program would encounter problems with the Kansas congressional delegation (On June 13, Kansas’s Beechcraft announced that it would exhibit the AT-6 and “defense, special mission and mission support capabilities” at this summer’s Paris Air Show). A source told Defense Media Network the low-key approach is happening because those on the Navy side of the joint effort feel it’s best to “keep a low profile, quietly go about doing good work, and keep the bosses informed.”
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Old 19 June 2013, 12:29
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"Soon available for purchase by foreign militaries on the North American website, Amazon.com, or perhaps shortly on Overstock.com"
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Old 19 June 2013, 14:36
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Sadly, it will go nowhere.

McCain again proves how myopic he is.
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Old 19 June 2013, 16:13
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The OV-10 is just the test platform. If it happens, look for a different aircraft.
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Old 19 June 2013, 16:31
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What frustrates me is that these mission are perfectly suited for the Air Guard. Small numbers of speciality aircraft. Too few for Big Blue to have "a career path" but needed none the less.

Low cost airframes, Guard units losing their flying missions evey year. These would be a perfect fit.
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Old 19 June 2013, 16:39
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Who is SEN. McCain in bed with? I know he could care less about money. I respect the man but it sure would be nice if could stop trying to "help" all the time.
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Old 19 June 2013, 20:45
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Like those Broncos. California Department of Forrestry uses them as a Forward Air Controler of sorts. They fly high above large fires and direct the other aircraft that are dropping chemical retardents.
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Old 19 June 2013, 21:05
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Colombia uses them for counter insurgent close air support and they are cool. They mount a 7.62 minigun under one wing and 2.75 inch rockets on the other. They fuck shit up.
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Old 20 June 2013, 00:30
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If purchased, there probably isn't anyone on AD that remembers how to jump them -- I volunteer to provide JM training on them....
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Old 20 June 2013, 00:39
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Originally Posted by SOTB View Post
If purchased, there probably isn't anyone on AD that remembers how to jump them -- I volunteer to provide JM training on them....
If you don't mind my asking, how much room exactly - is in that little cargo bay? It's rated for something like 3200 lbs of cargo, or six soldiers - or two litters and an attendant. Something that I have been curious about for a while, and was hoping for some first-hand (you, or any one else may wish to share...) knowledge, maybe a cool/funny story...?

I imagine, you'd be able to fit in four or so fully-equipped soldiers/Marines if you had to, no? Say, k-pot, LBV, rifle/SAW, ruck and perhaps if jumping - a parachute pack? Never seen a Bronco in-person, and from the pics I'm looking at in a book right now? It looks really, really cramped... I'd have to be folded-up like a damn metal beach chair and groaning in annoyance if I was made to get into that cargo bay, lol.
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Old 20 June 2013, 03:37
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Not as cool, as a turboprop-powered, Hellfire, APKWS and SBD lugging Skyraider, but hey, one can dream... Right?
Ah- no, no, no.

Low, dangerous- providing direct support to the Warriors who are almost always most in need.

And there is no better way of saying "Fuck you!"/"I love you Brothers!" from the sky than shooting holes through enemy with your gun (a gunfighter), or blowing them and their unfortunate friend to parts with your cannon and rockets, while they are attempting to kill your bravest Comrades on the ground.

You are pointing your aircraft at them and annihilating them.

Are you going to apply for this duty? If at all possible- go!.

There is 1 tradition from the WW2 Luftwaffe Schlachtflieger that I would strive to emulate-

If you have flown in the attack in support of USN or USMC Warrior- a Combat Action Ribbon on the side of your aircraft. When you have flown in the attack in support of USA- Combat Infantry Badge.

Not to claim the award- to make it obvious you know your mission, purpose, duties. "I fly where these awards are like leaves on a tree".

Here is photo of jaws of Hs 129 (partly predecessor of US A-10) with Wehrmacht Infantry Assault Badge (WW2)-



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Old 20 June 2013, 03:40
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The OV-10 is just the test platform. If it happens, look for a different aircraft.
If I introduce you to Gentleman with name of Jose Jimenez who looks far older than his new immigrant ID states and speaks German-accented Spanish- you will vouchsafe for him to enter this program if he shows amazing aptitude as Pilot for a 'new immigrant'?

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Old 20 June 2013, 07:22
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Was the OV-10 the plane that 4 guys could lay flat on their backs in the hold w/ gear and chutes on, then the plane would climb straight up, open the rear up and dump them out? I vaguely remember watching a demo like that at Cherry Point MCAS in the early 70s
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Old 20 June 2013, 07:49
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I seem to recall OV10s ( Black Ponys ) that worked out of Bien Thuy, RVN. With the exception of the Sea Wolves you couldn't ask for better close in ( danger close ) support.

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Old 20 June 2013, 08:14
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If you don't mind my asking, how much room exactly - is in that little cargo bay?
http://home.hiwaay.net/~magro/phildaub.html


P
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Old 20 June 2013, 13:38
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Was the OV-10 the plane that 4 guys could lay flat on their backs in the hold w/ gear and chutes on, then the plane would climb straight up, open the rear up and dump them out? I vaguely remember watching a demo like that at Cherry Point MCAS in the early 70s
Yes and they were fun.....
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Old 20 June 2013, 15:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fofo
If you don't mind my asking, how much room exactly - is in that little cargo bay?...I imagine, you'd be able to fit in four or so fully-equipped soldiers/Marines if you had to, no?...Never seen a Bronco in-person, and from the pics I'm looking at in a book right now? It looks really, really cramped...
Its fairly cramped. We ran sticks of 4, but I've also seen sticks of 3. Its tight. I've been in several of the stick positions but without a doubt the most fun is the door. As the article link above describes, you sit in the door with your legs (and half of your ass) hanging out. You have a safety belt (giggle) to hold you in. When the green light comes on, you unbuckle and simply drop out. The other guys behind you slide/crabwalk to get out. I've done several OV-10 jumps and in none of them did the last jumper simply slide out. He was scooting his ass like a MF'er to catch/keep up and get out before the bird winged over. The last jumper would likely have a 10-count opening and both his chute AND the bird would be below him when his chute opened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinPT
Was the OV-10 the plane that 4 guys could lay flat on their backs in the hold w/ gear and chutes on, then the plane would climb straight up, open the rear up and dump them out?
+/- correct, except you weren't lying flat on your back. There simply wasn't enough room to do so. You sat up and were crammed in like sardines.

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Yes and they were fun.....
Too much fun....
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Old 20 June 2013, 21:03
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We got to free fall them also on a trip out west. That was different. I never. Minded SL jumps from them but I never felt good until we hit 2000ft AGL on the climb. After 2000 I always felt a lot better. As MFF JM I was always in the door/hole....... I was great having them swoop and circle us in free fall. One of the pilots shot some good stills of us free falling that week......
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Old 20 June 2013, 21:16
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I never. Minded SL jumps from them but I never felt good until we hit 2000ft AGL on the climb. After 2000 I always felt a lot better....
Am I understanding you correctly that you were doing SL jumps from 2k'?

I ask because I've only seen it done at 800'-1200'ish AGL....
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Old 20 June 2013, 21:17
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Your post
That just goes without saying. :)


In-addition to a whole load of such munitions – rocket pods, dumb bombs, CBU's and built-in cannons would be a part of it's regular war load. My understanding is, the HS 129's design philosophy and Ernst Rudel's combat experience helped shape the A-10. The Henschel was quite the aircraft/tank killer, but available in too few numbers, underpowered and with a really small cockpit.


It's a good thing, they decided to leave some of the engine dials in the A-10 – not the engine nacelles like the 129, (although admittedly, it was done partially to allow for a quick glance and get a reading from the cockpit quickly...)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Polypro View Post
Thanks Poly! That was a quick but enjoyable read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOTB View Post
Its fairly cramped. We ran sticks of 4, but I've also seen sticks of 3. Its tight. I've been in several of the stick positions but without a doubt the most fun is the door. As the article link above describes, you sit in the door with your legs (and half of your ass) hanging out. You have a safety belt (giggle) to hold you in. When the green light comes on, you unbuckle and simply drop out. The other guys behind you slide/crabwalk to get out. I've done several OV-10 jumps and in none of them did the last jumper simply slide out. He was scooting his ass like a MF'er to catch/keep up and get out before the bird winged over. The last jumper would likely have a 10-count opening and both his chute AND the bird would be below him when his chute opened.

+/- correct, except you weren't lying flat on your back. There simply wasn't enough room to do so. You sat up and were crammed in like sardines.

Too much fun....
Funny thing is, Rockwell actually proposed an OV-10T. It would've used the same engines, engine pods, tail and wings as the Bronco. Just found these two pics earlier today...

b8ca9f2f.jpg

OV10.jpg

I now, have a good idea of what yourself and others were talking about. For some reason, I just assumed you would sit sideways like in most machines. Hahaha, no. Talk about a small space - and to think that the other finalist (Convair's Charger) looks like an even more snug fit.

From the looks of it, the pilot would've been mighty pissed flying, and possibly having someone banging on his seat while trying to fly.

Thanks for sharing your experiences - definitely interesting!
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"The foremost cartographers of the land have prepared this for you; it's a map of the area that you'll be traversing."

"It's blank."

"They'll be very grateful if you could just fill it in as you go along."
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