Go Back   SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network > General Topics > Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 25 September 2008, 01:11
cj the pj's Avatar
cj the pj cj the pj is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 124
fn herstal five seven ballistics ???

anyone find any good reading on the five seven... apparently the LE armor piercing rounds are good, but is the bang worth the buck for hitting anything else??? it has a high muzzle velocity but what about energy transferred?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 25 September 2008, 01:21
EchoFiveMike's Avatar
EchoFiveMike EchoFiveMike is offline
Make a desert and call it peace.
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: back home, IVO chicago
Posts: 5,161
It's not even a 22 Hornet. If you think past the "defeats soft armour" smoke and mirrors bullshit, you can see it's damn near worthless.

The proper solution to defeating soft armour at handgun ranges is to shoot the motherfucker in the face. Always has been, chances are always will be. Baring unforeseen technological developments, the weakest armour mounted over human vitals will always be over the face. S/F....Ken M
__________________
It's a hardball world, son. We've got to try to keep our heads until this peace craze blows over.

Political correctness is thuggery for the passive-aggressive.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 25 September 2008, 04:08
Tracker275's Avatar
Tracker275 Tracker275 is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,179
We have been dealing with this weapon as far as smuggling operations go for weapons heading south to Mexico for awhile. It is old news as far as the "Cop Killer" pistol, which is garbage. There is such a misunderstanding public wide, it is unreal. If you want the actual SS190 armor piercing ammo, you better be with either a law enforcement agency or the military, because that is ATF controlled and FN works through the ATF when they do a sale. So, lets set the ammo/armor piercing deal straight.

First of all, there are two currently commercially manufactured types of ammunition for the FN Five-seveN pistol that I am familiar with. Those are the SS195 (lead free hollow point - 27 grain) and the SS197 (polymer tip; V-Max - 40 grain). Discontinued types are the SS192 and SS196, however there are still some of those floating around out there. These currently manufactured types are readily available on the commercial market. Different reports and news articles describes the SS190 ammunition in depth, however that type of ammunition is exclusively for use by law enforcement and military use only. That specific ammunition is controlled by the BATFE as well and the ammunition can only be drop shipped from FN Herstal directly to the LEO or military organization and must be signed for with the appropriate BATFE documentation accompanying it. There are a total of (3) different controlled types of ammunition in this family, of which one is tracer. All are part of the SS190 category, of which are all BATFE monitored.

As far as the weapon/cartridge vs. body armor, you have to realize, nobody ever seems to indicate whether the vest was a Type I (.22 LR; .380 ACP), II-A (9mm; .40 S&W), II (9mm; .357 Magnum) , III-A (High Velocity 9mm; .44 Magnum), III (7.62mm FMJ/US Mil. M80) or IV (Armor Piercing - .30 Caliber Range) vest and whether they used the proper dummy within the vest to indicate proper penetration of body mass in conjunction with the test, nor is there any indication the distance they were shooting the vest from. All of these factors greatly affect both the trajectory, velocity, and energy that would allow for the bullet to penetrate the target. As far as labeling this cartridge the "cop killer" or "body armor penetrator", as done by many publications, it is a false statement as there are many cartridges that can penetrate body armor depending upon the armor class. It has been found that even the .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire (.17 HMR) will penetrate body armor if the conditions are right and particular types of body armors are tested. Additionally, a .233 Caliber (5.56x45mm) will also penetrate the standard Kevlar helmet used by both military and law enforcement when . Velocity and penetration along with bullet design go into this. I've done that test with folks myself and seen the holes in the Kevlar helmet.

We run into Mexican drug cartel members looking for this weapon due to all of the publicity it has gotten. Unfortunately, they aren't getting the SS190 ammunition. If they are, we all have a problem, due to the control measures for the ammunition.

The reason I know about all of the control measures for it is, because I have been working with the ATF and talked to the manager for distribution for FN Herstal two weeks ago regarding the ammunition and the problems we are having with this firearm. I also have one of these pistols in my possession and they are not all that everyone claims they are. Besides the fact that most of the pistol is polymer. The parts on the slide are held together by a polymer sheath with only one steel pin to keep it on.

Honestly, the "body armor penetrator" or "cop killer" pistol is not what everyone makes it out to be. A few years ago, there was reporting from the media done regarding this. One article stated that there was 700+ police officers killed that year, and 450+ were killed by this pistol/cartridge. Granted, the article was completely false, but by the time it was published with corrections, the damage was done.

Just like EchoFiveMike said, there are other cartridges that are just as/are far more lethal as the 5.7x28mm cartridge that the pistil fires. You can look at old cartridges like the .22 WMR, which is similar, or the .22 Remington Jet will perform the same or out perform the 5.7x28mm cartridge.

In short, regardless of performance, I would stay away from having possession of any of the actual SS190 ammunition or the variants of, unless you are authorized. As far as the rest of the line of ammunition, just go have fun with it as a "plinker" pistol.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 25 September 2008, 15:02
glockcqc glockcqc is offline
BTDT
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 886
5.7

If you reload your own ammunition, you could give the cartridge a little more velocity than what you can buy off the shelf.

Reloading dies and data are now being intruduced.

If I remember correctly, FN gives a muzzle velocity of about 1600 fps for the blue tip, 40gr, "sporting" rd, out of the 5.7 pistol. Ramshot Powders has a 5.7load for a 35gr V-max bullet, maxing out @ 2,007 fps, out of a 5" barrel (add 18% for the P90).

One could probably push it a little faster, still yet.

Once you go beyond the 2,000 fps threshold, w/a 34/40gr ballistic tip bullet, out of a pistol, I think you have something that would create some dramatic terminal ballistics.


Good shooting
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 25 September 2008, 15:48
EchoFiveMike's Avatar
EchoFiveMike EchoFiveMike is offline
Make a desert and call it peace.
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: back home, IVO chicago
Posts: 5,161
No you really can't do much with it and stay safe. The P90 is direct blowback operated and the pistol is delayed blowback so there really isn't much more you can do with it without breaking things. Case capacity is tiny, like 6.5gns H2O and operating pressure is circa 46k psi. It's an interesting small game cartridge, nothing more than that, once you get past all the sales hype and fanboy bullshit. S/F....Ken M

ediited to add detail and correct #'s
__________________
It's a hardball world, son. We've got to try to keep our heads until this peace craze blows over.

Political correctness is thuggery for the passive-aggressive.

Last edited by EchoFiveMike; 25 September 2008 at 15:54.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 25 September 2008, 19:37
cj the pj's Avatar
cj the pj cj the pj is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 124
im aware of the armor piercing capability being bullshit, atf would never let that fly... im more so curious as to it's just ballistics with hitting a person... the "ballistic gelatin test" to see the cavatation and penetration...

i have shot this,
fn came down and did a demo on all it's pistols for a bunch of pj's. i liked it's lack of recoil... 20rnd magazines and light weight... i think it beat the pants off our old beretta m9's...

but... if i shot someone with this with the available munitions... is it gonna just piss them off or will it do some damage to put them down... like larger caliber 357+...

or... how many walls would the bullet penetrate... such as just dry wall sheets 1/2 inch sheets...

trying to see if it's anything i might wanna pick up if i see a good deal..
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 26 September 2008, 01:08
yojinbukai's Avatar
yojinbukai yojinbukai is offline
Living the dream
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: SE Georgia
Posts: 2,891
As you your comparison, I would offer this... when an M9 is maintained properly (not by some gun friendly supply sergeant who can't spell armorer) by a factory / factory rep trained technician, that pistol is very, very solid. The standards that Beretta applies to every single pistol are pretty high or else it gets sent back.

On the other hand, the FN pistol you're talking about has already had one major flaw pinpointed by E5M. For a very special application it might be the best thing since the quadra-jet carburetor, but for a general purpose combat handgun I wouldn't think it has been tested nearly enough. That pistol and the P-90 are great fun to shoot, but there are other weapons out there that do the same things, better.

As to terminal ballistics... the thing that really matters most is where you shoot them. There are specialty ammunitions to alleviate your over-penetration concerns, right?
__________________
I swear by my life, and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 26 September 2008, 15:17
GPC's Avatar
GPC GPC is offline
Nice Guy
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Live Free or Die!
Posts: 1,985
I have a 5.7 I like the mag cap and light weight.I carry it when I'm on my mountain bike or hiking.More for weight of the pistol and 3 mags.It is a blast to shoot but ammo isn't cheap.I tend to bike hike solo so if I get in trouble it's nice to have 60 rounds to signal for help.I fully agree on what others posted on where you shoot your target.
__________________
Steel Rain Brings The Pain!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 26 September 2008, 16:25
cj the pj's Avatar
cj the pj cj the pj is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 124
yeah, lightweight, lots of rounds, thats why i was contemplating it for a concealed carry, something for a backpack... but the ballistics is still the question i have... it's a powerful round, but small... is it gonna stop a wild cat... human... etc... how are the hollow point rounds... are they similar to those of a 9mm +p hollowpoint... etc etc... if im not gaining anything by the fast rate of travel these bullets have then i dont wanna buy one...


so still the question stands... how does the wounding ballistics of this gun(with civilian available ammo) stack up to that of other pistols?..
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 26 September 2008, 18:26
Outofcontrol's Avatar
Outofcontrol Outofcontrol is offline
hippies beware
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 1,181
Sounds like the answer to your question has already been delivered...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsod275 View Post
As far as the weapon/cartridge vs. body armor, you have to realize, nobody ever seems to indicate whether the vest was a Type I (.22 LR; .380 ACP), II-A (9mm; .40 S&W), II (9mm; .357 Magnum) , III-A (High Velocity 9mm; .44 Magnum), III (7.62mm FMJ/US Mil. M80) or IV (Armor Piercing - .30 Caliber Range) vest and whether they used the proper dummy within the vest to indicate proper penetration of body mass in conjunction with the test, nor is there any indication the distance they were shooting the vest from. ...As far as labeling this cartridge the "cop killer" or "body armor penetrator", as done by many publications, it is a false statement as there are many cartridges that can penetrate body armor depending upon the armor class.

It has been found that even the .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire (.17 HMR) will penetrate body armor if the conditions are right and particular types of body armors are tested. Additionally, a .233 Caliber (5.56x45mm) will also penetrate the standard Kevlar helmet ....

The reason I know about all of the control measures for it is, because I have been working with the ATF and talked to the manager for distribution for FN Herstal two weeks ago regarding the ammunition and the problems we are having with this firearm. I also have one of these pistols in my possession and they are not all that everyone claims they are. Besides the fact that most of the pistol is polymer. The parts on the slide are held together by a polymer sheath with only one steel pin to keep it on.

Just like EchoFiveMike said, there are other cartridges that are just as/are far more lethal as the 5.7x28mm cartridge that the pistil fires. You can look at old cartridges like the .22 WMR, which is similar, or the .22 Remington Jet will perform the same or out perform the 5.7x28mm cartridge.

... As far as the rest of the line of ammunition, just go have fun with it as a "plinker" pistol.
Bolds are my own emphasis.

There are a TON of weapon/cartridge systems that have been well proven in combat/real world applications. This is not one of them.

Not trying to sound like a dick, but Im failing to see what more info can be provided...

OOC, out
__________________
MOLON LABE

"Don't tell fish stories where the people know you; but particularly, don't tell them where they know the fish."
--Mark Twain

"All that we see is perspective, not fact...All that we hear is opinion, not truth."
--Marcus Aurelius

"The time you spent typing and formatting this post would have been better spent hitting yourself in the face with a hammer."
--Jimbo

Wise old man--"That woman was SEXY!"
Young lad--"She's out of my league."
Wise old man--"Look...let women figure out why they wont sleep with you...dont do it for them."

Last edited by Outofcontrol; 26 September 2008 at 18:28. Reason: correction
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 27 September 2008, 01:52
bobofthedesert's Avatar
bobofthedesert bobofthedesert is offline
Weaponologist
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Babylon
Posts: 2,481
There IS a common handgun/cartridge combo that will penetrate soft armor, and it's been around since the 30's........
__________________
RIP Stevie D. 1964-2012
U.S. Army Veteran of OIF 2003
"Gone But Never Forgotten"

"Not all those who wander are lost"
- J.R.R. Tolkien

"Anywhere in the world there is a tyrant with his boot on the neck of the Arab, we should be there. Standing firmly behind the tyrant."
- MakoZeroSix

"There’s nothing more permanent than a temporary government measure."
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 27 September 2008, 09:12
GPC's Avatar
GPC GPC is offline
Nice Guy
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Live Free or Die!
Posts: 1,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobofthedesert View Post
There IS a common handgun/cartridge combo that will penetrate soft armor, and it's been around since the 30's........
.38 Super 1911?
__________________
Steel Rain Brings The Pain!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 27 September 2008, 14:24
bobofthedesert's Avatar
bobofthedesert bobofthedesert is offline
Weaponologist
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Babylon
Posts: 2,481
TT33 Tokarev/7.62x25

Mauser M96 Broomhandle/7.63mm, same cartridge (dimensionally identical) but not loaded as hot as the 7.62x25.....so interestingly enough the world's first commercially successful auto pistol/cartridge over 110 years old is a bigger threat than virtually any other pistol round......
__________________
RIP Stevie D. 1964-2012
U.S. Army Veteran of OIF 2003
"Gone But Never Forgotten"

"Not all those who wander are lost"
- J.R.R. Tolkien

"Anywhere in the world there is a tyrant with his boot on the neck of the Arab, we should be there. Standing firmly behind the tyrant."
- MakoZeroSix

"There’s nothing more permanent than a temporary government measure."
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 30 September 2008, 21:28
DocGKR DocGKR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 34
Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90:

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.
--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

A few large U.S. LE agencies adopted 5.7 mm weapons--after being involved in several OIS incidents with P90's, 5.7 mm usage in these agencies plummeted as a result of the poor terminal performance.

It is all basic physics and physiology. Look at the surface areas in contact with tissue for 9 mm FMJ and JHP compared to 5.7 mm. When both are point forward, the 9 mm FMJ crushes more tissue than the 5.7 mm; for the short time that the 5.7 mm is at FULL yaw, it crushes a bit more tissue than the 9 mm FMJ. At no time does the 5.7 mm crush more tissue than the expanded 9 mm JHP--even when the 5.7 mm FMJ is at full yaw, an expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue. The relatively small temporary cavities produced by both the 9 mm and 5.7 mm projectiles are not likely to cause significant injury to the majority of elastic structures of the body. As with any penetrating projectile, if either a 9 mm or 5.7 mm bullet is ideally placed to cause significant damage to the CNS or major cardiovascular organs, a fatal result is likely.



The P90 can definitely penetrate soft body armor, but then so can 9 mm AP rounds. The greater momentum of 9 mm bullets allow them to defeat vehicles and other intermediate barriers better than the 5.7 mm bullets. Standard 9 mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP JHP loads crush more tissue, offer ideal penetration, and are equally likely to not exit the opponent as the 5.7 mm. 5.56 mm and 6.8 mm weapons offer significantly superior terminal effects compared to 5.7 mm. Bottom line—what does the P90 offer that is not already available?

Last edited by DocGKR; 30 September 2008 at 21:34.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 1 October 2008, 02:13
cj the pj's Avatar
cj the pj cj the pj is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 124
a really badass look and huge mag capacity... thats it, your post was the best so far and answered what i was ultimately looking for... five-seven = scrap :-)

thanks doc
__________________
-BK
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 1 October 2008, 10:48
Horned Toad's Avatar
Horned Toad Horned Toad is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: usa
Posts: 826
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobofthedesert View Post
TT33 Tokarev/7.62x25

Mauser M96 Broomhandle/7.63mm, same cartridge (dimensionally identical) but not loaded as hot as the 7.62x25.....so interestingly enough the world's first commercially successful auto pistol/cartridge over 110 years old is a bigger threat than virtually any other pistol round......

Off topic but if you pull the bullets from those and load them on a 300WM its lots of fun and they go real fast. I got 3900fps and 1" groups at 200 yards.:D
__________________
75th RGR RGT
RS 03/92
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 4 October 2008, 09:53
Group9 Group9 is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj the pj View Post
anyone find any good reading on the five seven... apparently the LE armor piercing rounds are good, but is the bang worth the buck for hitting anything else??? it has a high muzzle velocity but what about energy transferred?
The AP hype was definintely picked up on by the dopers. So far, I have only see two of the pistols, and both were ones we took off dopers. About the only thing I thought was cool about the pistols was the 20 round mags they had.
__________________
"Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something."
- last words of Pancho Villa (1877-1923)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Our new posting rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:04.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Socnet.com All Rights Reserved
SOCNET